Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Then EXPLAIN why we are saying it?
The Bible is clear that God does not tempt, that is what the tempter does. However, God certainly allows us to BE tempted. Scripture tells us that God will always provide a way out (1 Corinthians 10:13). So, in a sense we are asking God to shield us from temptation, a natural thought for the Christian. However, of course this is not always part of God's plan. But that's OK. We also ask to be given our daily bread, however, it is sometimes part of God's plan that a Christian will not have food on a given day. That's all well and good too. Neither fact negates that He wants us to pray these things.
And lots of things can happen on the way to Paradise. People change their travel plans.
And that's why I thank God every day that I didn't make my travel plans. God did. Therefore if they are His plans, then they are not mine to change. :)
[FK quoting Rom 8:15-16 :] 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
What does that mean? Is God saying "Hello, FK, I testify to you that you are My (adopted) son?" Of course not! You think you are. You might even say that you "feel" you are. You may even say that you know you are, but you have no proof of anything—to borrow one FReeper's term "you got nothin'." By what means does God "testify" that you, specifically, are His son?
I just wanted to be clear that your argument is with scripture, not me. :) Anyway, the testimony has been written into our hearts as believers. It was given to us. WE can be assured. As to the "how", Barnes says this:
[On Romans 8:16] If it be asked how this is done, I answer, it is not by any revelation of new truth; it is not by inspiration; it is not always by assurance; it is not by a mere persuasion that we are elected to eternal life; but it is by producing in us the appropriate effects of his influence. It is his to renew the heart; to sanctify the soul; to produce "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance," Gal 5:22-23. If a man has these, he has evidence of the witnessing of the Spirit with his spirit.
If not, he has no such evidence. And the way, therefore, to ascertain whether we have this witnessing of the Spirit, is by an honest and prayerful inquiry whether these fruits of the Spirit actually exist in our minds. If they do, the evidence is clear. If not, all vain confidence of good estate; all visions, and raptures, and fancied revelations, will be mere delusions. It may be added, that the effect of these fruits of the Spirit an the mind is to produce a calm and heavenly frame; and in that frame, when attended with the appropriate fruits of the Spirit in a holy life, we may rejoice as an evidence of piety.(emphasis added)
Here is some supporting scripture:
2 Cor 1:21-22 : 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
1 John 5:10-11 : 10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 Cor 2:12 : 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
I know that I cannot prove to your satisfaction that I am saved, but the good news is that I do not need to. :) I rejoice that I can know.
[continuing:] Don't get me wrong: the verse sure sounds good. But that's not what faith is about, is it?
It sounds like it pretty much does to me! :) What is the Apostolic view of the passage?
No, [Paul] was apparently at times preaching the exact opposite of what Christ preached. Like his famous saying "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." [2 Thess 3:10]. Yet the Gospel tells us "not to worry" because the "Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." [Mat 6:32-33]
OK, so what is the correct resolution to this apparent dilemma? Is it to declare Paul wrong and Jesus right? Or, is the solution to look at other scripture to see if there is a way for both of them to be right? I always choose the latter. In this case, it isn't even hard. One verse to consider is from Genesis:
Gen 3:19 : By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
Doesn't this sound EXACTLY like what Paul is saying? So at this point we have Jesus on the one hand, and the writings of Moses, which Jesus specifically affirms, on the other. Which Jesus is right? Why both are of course. The teaching of Mat 6:32-33 is NOT to sit on our rumps and wait for everything to be handed to us. This would fail all of God's action Commandments. So, that can't be it. Maybe, instead the point is that we should always TRUST in God to provide AS WE WORK. That whole passage speaks to having a Godly perspective and not getting caught up with the cares of the world. God will take care of all that. We should just do our jobs and serve Him. In most cases, part of that service is involved with working to provide food.
A propos od little or nothing, I just ran across the following on website/blog reporting on the House of Bishop’s of the Episcopal Church meeting down in New Orleans. Apparently this is one of the official hymns for the meeting. I post this because, frankly, our differences are pretty small when compared to what passes for Christianity among the elites in this country these days. What a bunch of damnable heretics!:
“Mothering God
Mothering God,
you gave me birth
in the bright morning of this world.
Creator, source of every breath,
you are my rain, my wind, my sun.
Mothering Christ, you took my form,
offering me your food of light,
grain of life, and grape of love,
your very body for my peace.
Mothering Spirit,
nurturing one,
in amrs of patience hold me close,
so that in faith I root and grow
until I flower, until I know.
Here’s another one (to be sung at the Eucharist, no less):
All creatures of the our God, sing praise,
with thankful hearts your voices raise
O sing praises! Alleluia!
O Brother Sun with golden beam,
O Sister Moon with silver gleam!
Dear Mother Earth, who day by day
unfolds our blessings on our way
O sing praises! Alleluia!
The flow’rs and fruit that in you grow,
let them God’s glory also show!
The list goes on and on and on.
You wrote: "Only the elect get saved under Reformed doctrine."
I asked if you think any non-elect will be saved. Under Catholic doctrine, are the non-elect saved?
Further, I asked for your definition of "God's elect."
If Jesus died on His Cross to save the whole world; then we have differing views on who makes up the elect.
Are the elect the whole world?
"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" -- Colossians 3:12
Was Paul a universalist? Was he including the whole world here as "the elect of God?"
Do you think that it is our right or God's responsibility that we all go to heaven? What we rightfully deserve, as Lord_Calvinus pointed out, is to go to hell. I would even go so far as to say that, in our present condition as haters of God, we wouldn't want to go to heaven. The fact that God, through His grace and mercy, would stretch out His hand and help us overcome our blindness is astounding and illustrate His love to us. You may consider this partiality but this is what grace is about; God revealing Himself to some while to others He doesn't.
You didn't come to know God because you were more smarter or more faithful or more humbler than the next person. You came to know God because He so ordained it.
Sorry, but it sounds more like the Stockholm Syndrome than Christ’s teaching.
Dear Mother Earth, who day by day
unfolds our blessings on our way
O sing praises! Alleluia!
The flow’rs and fruit that in you grow,
let them God’s glory also show!
I remember the first church I attended where I came to know God we use to sing this song all the times. It was a very heretical, liberal church. No word of God; no sound preaching. Like Naaman, God melted my heart. Two weeks after I came to know God I had an argument with the pastor's wife over the virgin birth (she didn't believe in it). God, rich in His mercies, rescued me from this church which, btw, is now defunct.
Now you know why I'm a Calvinist. :O)
I'll stick with my version. Somehow that doesn't sound like Christ's teaching.
“I would even go so far as to say that, in our present condition as haters of God, we wouldn’t want to go to heaven.”
Very patristic of you, HD. You know, a number of the Fathers posited that the presence of God, or better said, of His uncreated light, while caressing and a source of comfort to those in a state of theosis, was like burning fire to those who were not. They sismply cannot stand being in the presence of God’s uncreated energies.
“Now you know why I’m a Calvinist. :O)”
You know, if I had ended up in a parish where that heresy was sung, I might well have ended up a Calvinist myself, at a minimum a “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” Congregationalist! :)
Sophia Rising.
Goddess Gaea ...
No, God's love doesn't vary with what I do or who I am.
I think the second case would be more in line with Calvinist Predestination theology. God's love varies with you are, or luck of the draw of something.
Sorry, that should be or luck of the draw OR something.
I never have heard why Calvinist think God loves them and hates their brother - other than “who knows?” or God’s ways.. or something.
O Brother Sun with golden beam, O Sister Moon with silver gleam! Dear Mother Earth
Oh my.
No, it was decided by God's actions. If our actions determine Heaven or hell, then you have to throw out a multitude of Biblical passages. Or, those passages can be pretzeled beyond all recognition.
Nearly every book of the NT discusses that our eternal end will be dependent upon our response to God's good graces through our actions.
But not dependent in the Apostolic sense. If someone does no works, then he is not saved into Heaven because he has not persevered. We disagree on who gets the pat on the back for our works. God or man. In addition, I "think" we disagree on whether there is one judgment or two. So, for you every works-based verse that mentions "judgment" is salvation vs. hell.
At the salvation judgment, I can just see God standing there and asking an Apostolic why He should let him into Heaven. Then, I presume, the Apostolic will try to list all the wonderful things he has done in his life and hope that it is enough to receive God's mercy and passage into Heaven. When it is my turn, I am simply going to point to my "Mouth", whose name is Jesus Christ. He will do all of my talking for me. BTW, that's always an option for you too, if you ever get stuck. :)
However, it doesn't follow that because God has given us every good gift, that we are not involved in a free will response to His commands.
The disagreement is over what "involved" means. To me it means that we are there to carry out God's works. I think the Apostolic would say that God gives us the tools to carry out our own works, and those who do that pleasingly enough (quality, quantity, or both) for God are the ones who get into Heaven. That is plainly an earned salvation. Let me ask this: if you do not believe in earned salvation through works, then how WOULD you describe a system that was indeed based on doing enough good deeds, and loving enough by some Godly measure, i.e. an earned salvation? I can't see any difference.
Loving itself is of course work in a real sense. If I do a job that I hate to feed my family I would think that I would get "love points" (for lack of a better term), and it would certainly be work to me. We cannot just say that acts of love are immune to being counted as work. Many times they are very hard, as the Bible tells us. How easy is it for us to love our friends, etc., we should love our enemies. I would assume your side would say that with everything else equal, the guy who does a better job at this will have the edge over the next guy for getting into Heaven. The first guy earned a higher "rating". How else could this work?
It is akin to receiving a vacuum for a present. Without it, I couldn't clean the floor. With it, I can choose to use it or not. I will not be able to go to God and say "Look, I cleaned the floor, I deserve something".
Why not? You say that you didn't do it to receive something, but out of pure love. That is fine. HOWEVER, are you not ALSO saying that this is EXACTLY what you will be judged on in order to get into Heaven? If so, then it comes out the same. Why should God let you into Heaven? Apostolics presumably are going to point to things like "vacuuming". :) We will not.
FK: "We humans need motivation and God uses different methods of accomplishing that. A large amount of that is contained in the encouragements and teachings we get in the Bible."
Which is exactly why we do not believe in Sola Scriptura. In two sentences, you have twice denied it.
Then it's a double negative and it all means that I supported Sola Scriptura once. :) I only meant that God reaches us through the Bible, and also in a more direct personal sense, through specific leading. God can also use specific people in certain circumstances for specific purposes, but none of this speaks to Sola Scriptura. I don't know what you're saying.
Problem is that we don't know who the true believers are...
You're right, but why is that a problem? All of us CAN know about ourselves, but no one else with absolute certainty. It is for THIS reason that we Reformers minister to the whole world instead of just a few on the list. This is God's plan.
I've known people who think they are true believers fall away and become atheists.
Yes, I'm sure we all have. So, we just keep right on ministering to them as God allows. No problem.
We place our hope in Christ and pray for our PERSEVERANCE! Thus, if one presumes that they already have a place in heaven for themselves, they are not a true believer.
Yes, we place our hope in Christ, and part of that hope is in that the words Christ spoke were true. If they were, then we are told that we may be sure of our salvation and have confidence in Him during our lives that He is good for His word. If He had spoken other words, then it may not have been part of God's plan that we could have assurance. But, fortunately for those who choose to take advantage of it, confidence and security are available to all believers.
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony!
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