Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
There are arguments and then there are dumb arguments.
Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of [Page 278] by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,--whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,--be wholly abolished. But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from what soever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly. -Council of Trent
Why can't you ask for forgiveness from your future sins? Doesn't God know what you will do next week, month, year?
...what determines who goes to heaven and who doesn't? Repentance. Once I repent of sin because of God's grace, I am forgiven. Until that point, I am not forgiven. ...Adam's sin universally effected mankind. Thus, Christ's death is expiation for ALL men who turn to Him in repentance.
But that's not what you said above. You stated that your sins are forgiven up to that point. Future sins are not covered. So some sins must not be covered.
you: Except yours of course. :)
A thing is true because God says it.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:8
I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deut 4:2-3
I and [my] Father are one. John 10:30
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. John 17:20-23
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
And that is fine as far as it goes but it is incomplete to use the concept of time which is part of the Creation to describe the Creator.
Gods Name is I AM. He is timeless. Time is part of His Creation. There was a beginning of time, but there will be no end of time.
God the Father had no beginning, He is not caused, there is no origin of Him. He was not begotten.
Jesus Christ was begotten. He is in the beginning. Indeed, Christ is the beginning everything that was made, was made by Him and for Him. He is the First Cause and the Final Cause, Alpha and Omega:
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. I John 4:9
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Col 1:15-20
It is a subtle difference which the terms you prefer to use do not capture because it speaks of the One. And truly, the Father and the Son are One there is no bright line between Them (imagine what a mess it would be for us if there were!):
So both Names for God are Truth: I AM, Alpha and Omega.
Likewise, the Names Alpha and Omega should not be anthropomorphized to a timeline.
Everything flows from Genesis to Revelation. From the beginning, God is gathering His family for the new heaven and new earth. The purpose for this heaven and earth is the next heaven and earth.
To use an analogy, if the First Cause is the blueprint for the house the Final Cause is the home in which we dwell.
But the Final Cause, the Omega, is not the end of time. Indeed, from our point of view it is the beginning of eternity, time without end.
Christ, Who is the Son of God the Father and is One in Him, was begotten, He lived and died and He lives without end:
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:3
I guess that’s a yes.
AG, I didn’t mean to be curt in my last reply. Didn’t know how to begin.
Respectfully, unless you’re God, it’s a belief also known as a doctrine. But you’re just repeating what God told you, right?
It’s sometimes difficult to have a discussion about religion with someone who believes they speak for God. I think I should just retire from it for a while.
best regards...
WoW! Thanks for the ping. No wonder he was persecuted. He told the truth. I had no idea that there were Orthodox around back then who really got it. :)
You are reading into it and making up something that has no parallel. The blood was a sign.
Apparently, the all knowing God in this instance could not tell which household was Egyptian and which Hebrew, so He "needed" a visible marker!
For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgmentsI am the LORD. [Ex 12:12]
"The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt. " [Ex 12:13]
Also, previous verses show that the lamb could be a goat! [Ex 12:5] The lamb did not atone for their sins; and no one was drinking its blood.
The lamb WAS sacrificed for the life of the inhabitants of that house
This "sacrifice" was not to atone for any sins.
Why don't you Google "seder" and "thanksgiving" and see what you come up with?
When someone whose man-made "church" says that the early Church did not understand scriptuires and had it all wrong...yet could collect manuscripts you consider inspired, I need not go any further.
How can you be sorry for something you have not yet done? That concept is beyond a simpleton like myself. Sorry.
You stated that your sins are forgiven up to that point. Future sins are not covered. So some sins must not be covered.
A sin is something that goes against the will of the Father. Sin cannot occur outside of time because ALL creation is subject to time and only creation can offend God's will. Thus, a sin has not occured yet. As a result, future sins are not covered because they don't exist yet.
Christ's death has the potential to forgive ALL men's sins. However, we know that ALL men will not ask for forgiveness. Sin is not covered until it is repented of - it is God doing the forgiving. Even Jesus does not presume to demand the Father to forgive us, because HE intercedes for us - HE ASKS FOR OUR SAKE that we be forgiven. Thus, even despite His death, Jesus continues to offer His once completed expiation for the sake of men who beg for forgiveness, as 1 John states. MAN must ask GOD for forgiveness - which is what Jesus CONTINUES to do. Present tense.
Regards
***... mankind was given a chance to be redeemed... by submitting to, following and imitating Christ.***
Salvation is possible if man does a, b, c, & d.
Nothing but working your way to heaven.
***Christ gave His life to the devil...***
Yep, thank God for the Reformation and restoration of the Church from this kind of devil in charge theology.
Apparently, the all knowing God in this instance could not tell which household was Egyptian and which Hebrew, so He "needed" a visible marker!
It could also be seen as those who follow the L-rd's commandments are saved; Jew or gentile. Those who refuse to do what the L-rd commands; Jew or gentile will perish. Being a member of a denomiation will not save; calling on the Name of the L-rd will save. That is one way to spin it.
shalom b'shem Yah'shua
Wrong. Most Protestants will tell you man generate this repentance same as what jo kus stated.
2Co 7:9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
2Co 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
2Ti 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
You're catching on. ;O)
Sure, that's true. And while we do hold very lively discussions on these topics most will tell you it doesn't make any difference. These are more subtle points of view that have little to do with justification, sanctification, atonement, election, predestination, and all the other far more important things.
I am very set in my ways on baptism but I can assure you, if a Reformed Presbyterian church opened up across the street from me, I would think nothing of leaving my Southern Baptist church.
Then if you sinned right before you die, where would you go? Would your sin be forgive?
Nice name...
Welcome to the thread.
Marker Post
I’d go a little further than that. The Baptists came out of the Anabaptist (Zwingli) movement which generally had a heaping helping of Calvin, and the Presbyterians came out of the Wesleyan movement who was noted for opposing Calvin.
There are some great theological gaps between the two, not just baptism.
Well, I hadn't expected that reply from a person of the Reformed persuasion. If it is true, that is good to hear, with the caveat that there is no repentance without grace from above. I imagine you'd agree, since you posted the pertinent Scriptures.
Regards
Sounds like a question my 60 year old Dad asked me.
So what would happen to a guy who jumped off a building to commit suicide and changed his mind half way down?
I will tell you the same thing...
I leave it in God's hands and His mercy.
To further add, I guess that person would, at best, be "heading" to Purgatory. Such a person would need purification before joining in union with the Almighty God.
Regards
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