Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Do you believe that God already knows all those who will be saved and all those who will be lost?
Does God have perfect or imperfect foreknowledge?
I said that a SHEPHERD both shears his sheep and eats some of them. The point is that the Shepherd’s actions are of a different, higher, order than those of a sheep.
That was followed by a question about Winston Churchill. What is your answer to the question?
Doesn’t it strike you as odd that the comparison so often used of Christ and God as our shepherd is here used in theological debate as to whether the “shepherd” kills and eats his flock?
Does the thought occur that if we end up here, a wrong turn has been made somewhere?
I don’t intend to harm, but the Shepherd does shear the sheep and does have the power of life and death over them.
I know some shepherds, and I know that to be true.
It is also true in biblical times. I don’t think that fact was lost on anyone.
I understand and I certainly would never think you intend harm.
It just seems so off-key to hear this discussion about a shepherd killing some of his sheep. It’s impossible to read without hearing:
The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
And I can’t help but think we’ve left something deep and true and good behind to get to this place. There’s something we forgot to remember above all we know.
In Athens , (from Acts 17)
16While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. 17So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. 18A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. 19Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? 20You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." 21(All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
32When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, "We want to hear you again on this subject." 33At that, Paul left the Council. 34A few men became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others.
betty boop, I totally agree with your factual assessment of our human condition, and I believe this passage from Acts includes that testimony.
I find it in keeping with the arguments here (and elsewhere throughout the forum) that the Book is variously referred to as, "The Acts of the Apostles" and "The Acts of the Holy Spirit," much like the last Book of Scripture may variously be called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" and "The Revelation of Saint John."
This is why I do not argue God's Predetermined Will over and against Man's Free Choice, for these coexist and in the Godhead and His Work do not contradict, deny, disavow or in any way destroy one another. In the mind of Christ, which we share, these manly perceptions of division and argument in the either/or need not exist and in fact do not exist.
I am struggling daily to fit His Power to achieve into my power to apprehend and apply - "to walk in the Spirit and not give way to the desire of the flesh." I seek wisdom specifically in the areas of choosing to quit smoking and choosing to 'become a writer' (for lack of better verbiage at this moment). How much of these manifestations of freedom and creativity are of God's Sovereign Impulse and how much of my acceptance or refusal to comply??? Am I disobedient to God's will in choosing to smoke, or is this some thorn in the flesh He has sovereignly chosen to leave with me, that His Grace may prove all the stronger, all the more beneficial? Likewise, having the desire to 'write' - that is, to set forth in order words on paper in the form of fictional short stories to convey to readers ideas by publication in book or magazine form - and yet not 'writing' in this particularly envisioned way, am I living in opposition to God's Purpose for my life, or is it not in this moment to be, but for some later, predestined date? If I am not 'writing' in this moment, is this God's good, pleasing and perfect will, though I have the urge, or am I in the flesh excusing my lack of discipline? energy? order? production...? Who can answer this question for me in truth?
Even within myself the question remains tenuous, unanswered fully and unanswerable by man.
It seems perfectly rational and ordinarily normal to me that only in hindsight, a thing having been accomplished or not, can we say with any certainty, "This was indeed the Will of God."
Dorothy Sayers, in her great work, The Mind of the Maker, deals intimately with such issues. She shows the pattern in the creative artist which points to the pattern in the Creator of the artist (as He is Creator of all men). She purports that even as the creation of man in writing his stories with characters may sometimes, somehow move beyond the author's original intent, i.e., "the characters seem to take on a life of their own," so we too, God's idea and God's moving personalities in His grand design, somehow seem to live and move not only within His Idea, Manifestation, and Energy, but also with a free (sometimes fierce) will of our own, which the author, surprised? delighted? amused? by, nonetheless must and will work into the whole of the creation so that the story in final proof makes sense, is in keeping with the rules of logic and art and sense which must apply to all storytelling. In my act of writing I may find that suddenly a twist in plot has occurred as my pen met the page (I am aware of it, yet I did not plan it to 'come out' that way); yet, because it is I, myself, holding the pen, and I am creator outside my creation and above it, I am still in control of the final result. The end which I foresaw in the conception is the end that will be reached in conclusion, regardless of the caprices of plot, character, scenery, which may "pop up" within the pages between the covers. It is, after all, my work (:
So our Father in heaven, His Alpha, His Omega, by His Power alone which is His Spirit, accomplishes His Will. It is His Story. Yet His characters have life! Amen.
"[T]he only way of 'mastering' one's material is to abandon the whole conception of mastery and to co-operate with it in love: whosoever will be a lord of life, let him be its servant."I believe this is an insight into God Who Saves, Jesus Christ who came not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many (Mark 10:45). Such service is not 'work' but Love In Action. It is the artist with his brush in passion over his canvas and colors; the writer at midnight with his candle almost burned up and yet he persists fervently to record the word to the parchment! So God's "work" (all of creation) is not nor was some dispassionate, removed thing unattached to Himself, but so like the artist we can see and hear testimony from, God is in love united to His work, and His work is the passion of His Life forever. I'm so glad this is true!
~Dorothy Sayers
And I am content with the mystery of this life, this passion and love in me - all of God? What of will? - because it is the beautiful creative energy one can experience and take part in. It is Love Making. Hallelujah.
As we read in Acts 17 above, there is the 'proclamation' and the call to 'repentance' which are of human will or at least willingness; yet how could any of it be without the Holy Spirit, the force of life and breath itself all in and all around and ever-creating? How I praise my God for such mysteries: how unfathomably lovely is He!
- Genesis 22: 13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son.
- Ge 22:7 - Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?" "Yes, my son?" Abraham replied. "The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"
- Ge 22:8 - Abraham answered, "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." And the two of them went on together.
- Mr 14:12 - On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"
- Lu 22:7 - Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
- Joh 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
- Joh 1:36 - When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"
- Re 13:8 - ...the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
I did.
War is not God's creation and cannot be just. It is a consequence of our fallen state. One cannot return evil for evil and expect it to be justified in God's eyes. Churchill's strategy was "justified" from a military point of view, but not morally.
Allied bombings were just as barbaric as Nazi bombings of England were. Invariably, more civilians died then soldiers and more non-military structures were hit than military targets. We dismiss it today as "collateral damage" except when it concerns us.
The shepherd doesn't harm the sheep by shearing them. He is using God's blessings that make our life comfortable. There is no harm done in that. Killing them is a different story. Killing animals and eating meat was an "amendment" to God's (immutable?) laws: namely that the food for animals and men are to be plants (cf Gen 1:29). Adam's Fall changed all that.
Having power doesn't mean being justified. A gun gives you power, but it's the manner in which the power is just or unjust. Some people arrogate power over other people by reducing them to less than human. This is the basic principle in every war. It is dehumanizing your enemy so that you can kill him.
Carpet bombings during WWII achieved military and psychological objectives, but they also killed scores of innocent lives. There is nothing morally just in any of that.
Didn't I post Romans 10?
A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do.... He has the option of sitting on the sidelines.
If Jonah was a "robot" he would have went directly to Nineveh. Instead he headed the other way. When he saw that wasn't any good he tried to drown himself. God uses our failings to help us grow but He doesn't allow us to sit on the sidelines.
And the Lord does not rejoice in the suffering of His creation. Nor dies He desire harm to be done to any. It turns out the killings of animals as burnt offerings is not what God wanted. It was part of gradual revelation, and people had it wrong to believe that God “enjoyed” the smell of burnt meat or that somehow it took away our sins. It’s pagan and it’s repulsive top everything Christ taught us.
The Maker of all human beings is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart.
This is due to a malfunction in the original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units.
This defect has been technically termed “Subsequential Internal Non-Morality,” or more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily expressed.
Some other symptoms include:
1. Loss of direction
2. Foul vocal emissions
3. Amnesia of origin
4. Lack of peace and joy
5. Selfish or violent behavior
6. Depression or confusion in the mental component 7. Fearfulness 8. Idolatry 9. Rebellion
The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect,is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to correct this SIN defect. The Repair Technician, Jesus, has most generously offered to bear the entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no additional fee required.
The number to call for repair in all areas is: P-R-A-Y-E-R.
Once connected, please upload your burden of SIN through the REPENTANCE procedure. Next, download ATONEMENT from the Repair Technician, Jesus, into the heart component. No matter how big or small the SIN defect is, Jesus will replace it with:
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self control
Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E.- (Believers’ Instructions Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these fixes.
WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without correction voids any manufacturer warranties, exposing the unit to dangers and problems too numerous to list and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded.
DANGER: The human being units not responding to this recall action will have to be scrapped in the furnace. The SIN defect will not be permitted to enter Heaven so as to prevent contamination of that facility.
Thank you for your attention.
GOD
Please assist where possible by notifying others of this important recall notice, and you may contact the Father any time by “kneemail”.
Do you think God will punish you in heaven for not using all the talents He gave you? Does this sound like what heaven would be like?
Thanks for the post, there is some good information there!
That was the question. You did not answer it.
Imho, you have only now answered it.
Churchill's strategy was "justified" from a military point of view, but not morally.
The point of the question, though, was to demonstrate that one's position requires a different understanding of justice.
As an aside: collateral damage in war is a given.
We know what smoking does. Suicide is not "God's sovereign will..." Destroying His temple that is your body intentionally is not a virtue.
I am under the impression that you consider that story to be mythical. Is that correct?
Calvin wouldn't disagree with this statement in general. God overcomes our sinful nature by changing our nature and making things irresistable to us. It's like Moses and the burning bush. He couldn't take his eyes off a bush that was on fire but not consumed.
If a dazzling angel *POPPED* into your bedroom tonight and told you to eat corn flakes in the morning, what would you tell the angel standing there; "I'll think about it."? And if the Lord had already given you the will and desire to eat corn flakes, I bet a cookie you would have corn flakes and you would love them despite them getting stuck in your fillings.
To the contrary. I answered it when I said there is nothing just in war. We are not speaking about different degrees of the same affliction, not cure. Is someone who kills 7 people any less guilty than the one who kills 3?
The point of the question, though, was to demonstrate that one's position requires a different understanding of justice
Human justice and God's justice are two different things. We cannot keep reducing God's justice to ours. God did not create wars. Fallen world did. The child of a fallen world is a fallen child. We cannot seek God's jsutice in anything when it comes to war.
As an aside: collateral damage in war is a given
No, we can fight wars where only the willing fight and die in a designated place.
Cheap shot pastor. There is nothing mythical about plants and animals and humans. They are all here. Love is peace and God created a peaceful world. God does not delight in anyone's suffering.
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