Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Again this can apply literally to believing children [ despise not one of these little ones ]
So Jesus is saying it's ok to despise non-believing children? At what age?
Except ye be converted, and become as little children..
Is Jesus saying the little one is converted or that the converted become as little children?
What do you expect from anyone who thinks everything is predetermined
They believe that God predetermines everything , even those who use their faith to Praise Him is predetermined...In other words it is not our free wills that Pray and Praise God,since we have no free will it would have to be God Praising Himself.
We are just empty shells along for the ride.
I wonder if this stuff ever runs through their minds? Then again, we don't need a mind because everything has been predetermined anyway ;-)
Oh well!
I will just keep praying for them. Prayer moves hearts far better than words anyway!
FK to DF: We believe that God is immutable and unchanging. But that does not mean God must be a static being.
DF to FK: I think you are confusing this with the immaterial energies of the Holy Trinity or Godhead.
We are dealing with concepts that boggle the mind. The mystery of God reveals that He is unaffected by time, and time is needed for change, ergo He is changeless. Gospels tell us that God is love. How does love, which doesn't change, become hate without ceasing to be love unless it is in the eyes of the beholder? It is our disposition towards God that determines if we experience His love as love or as hate.
Rag dolls in my book.
That's right: challenge. That doesn't mean we stay in His light. If it were a done deal it wouldn't be a challenge.
Truly, every good thing (fruit, works) that comes from our lives after we have been reborn in Him, is His doing and to His glory, not ours
People do it because they want rewards. they want eternal life, they want to be saved, and acceptable to God. Take out the promise of eternal life and see how many people do anything in His name, or how many people come to church to praise Him for nothing more than His glory.
The motive is what counts. Only those who love God for no reason whatsoever and expect nothing from Him, are the one who love Him truly. I have ten fingers on my hand too many to count those.
With respect, I cannot find such a posting.
Would you be able to provide evidence of this?
Well, I can't possibly top Dr. E. quoting Harley quoting Calvin. That's something you just don't do. :)
Regarding salvation, it depends on your definition of salvation. Are you referring to that past event where you first accepted our Lord as your Savior and repented of your sins? Because we have not yet received the other kind of salvation, our entrance into heaven, which is not yet secured. It is based on hope (and OUR perseverance in Christ!)
Yes, that is what I was referring to, but your use is proper also. We of course disagree on whether salvation can be secured during physical life. I would just add that the Biblical use of the word "hope" includes confidence and surety.
It's more than that, because you admit that we have been given the ability to obey. This cannot happen unless the man is ALSO involved. It cannot be said that we obey anything if God does it all. We certainly cannot take credit for anything, whether natural or supernatural gifts.
I agree with you and Augustine that we are returning the gifts God has given us. It could just be a matter of semantics over what "involved" means. After salvation, we are free to act out God's will, but it must also be in accordance with God's exact plan (which we cannot know). So in that sense we are certainly "involved". We want to obey and God directs how that happens.
So, rather than that, how about you tell me how the different versions of the KJV came to be, other than modern usage.
I think that God is beyond emotions as we understand them.
I’d just hang on to the idea that He created us as the pinnacle of His creation in order to have us love and worship Him. Other than that, He is far above me.
LOL. If I might add --
Well, I can't possibly top Dr. E. quoting Harley quoting Calvin quoting Scripture... 8~)
You may or may not be interested in the idea that man indeed has free will. You may or may not be interested in the idea that man has responsibility for his everlasting destination.
You may have reason to furiously defend the robot slave theory, but I suspect that it is because you believe that you are one of the elitist elect and none of the rest of us can get into your undeserved club.
Are you saying that God is like a sports fan? Do you have Scriptural evidence of this?
I do not know if God will accept me into Heaven; the Lord knows that I hope and that I am doing what I can. I don’t have indwelling knowledge, or a get out of hell free card.
I don’t think that they exist.
We may yet bring the Calvinists to Heaven.
When Jesus Ascended, all efforts of the Church were man-made.
God gave His authority to the Church; rather than the whims of individuals.
It's an hyperbole. A figure of speech. But I repeat myself.
Let's see the context of the verse...
If you are sincerely interested in context, you need to at least start at verse 9. That's where Paul starts this particular line of thinking, and what he says from that point sets the tone for the verses in question. Better yet, just read chapter 12 in it's entirety. But if not, at least go back to verse 9.
9) Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
10) Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
11) not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
12) rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;
13) distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
14) Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
15) Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
16) Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17) Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
18) If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.
19) Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance in Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.
20) Therefore
21) Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Now, if you are determined to believe that the quoted proverb in verse 20 was intended to emphasis God's wrath on your enemy, as mentioned in 19, then a link between 19 and 20 will appear plain as day. But if you were to interpret the proverb as I do, that benevolence can break the cycle of violence, then the link simply isn't there. In other words, the link you point out between 19 and 20 only appears to be there because you interpret the heaping of coals to be an act of hostility. Since you need to prove your interpretation to prove the link, you can't use the link to prove your interpretation; circular reasoning.
So, this is where the other verses come in handy. We can look at the tone of the message Paul is sending. He say be good to each other; be good like this; be good like that. Be good and let God handle the enemy. Your interpretation has Paul advising them to be good to their enemy so their enemy will suffer. That's disturbing. I think you mistake Paul for Poe (as in Edgar Allan). Verse 14 says "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse." But you insist that Paul turns around 180 degrees and tells us to do 'good' so as to bring a curse on the enemy's head.
And He most certainly will -- by "heaping holes of fire on their heads."
Sounds like a curse alright.
Frankly, I don't think I've ever heard a verse so misunderstood as your take on this one.
Should I be surprised?
Of course I guess if you insist on thinking God loves everyone, then floods, pestilence, disease and destruction are all divine love tokens, too, and not a result of God's wrath.
Yes and no, but another subject for another day.
Remind me never to tell you I'm feeling a little chilly. 8~)
Apparently, if I were still a member of the PCA, your fears might be justified. :P
As God wills it
;)
As explained by the verse in context, "coals of fire" further distinguishes God's children from those not numbered among His family, those who are enemies of His children and thus, enemies of Him.
As 1000silverlings wrote: "Indeed, the Greek for "burning coals" is our English word anthrax, so might be whence comes our saying "a pox upon him",lol. At any rate I think the burning coals are meant to represent God's wrath."
Amen.
But, hey, if you want to think tossing burning coals of fire on someone's head is an act of kindness in order to keep them warm and toasty, that's your campfire prerogative.
“Your interpretation has Paul advising them to be good to their enemy so their enemy will suffer. That’s disturbing.”
Jesus said: “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you” (Matt. 5:43–44).
Jesus is saying the best way to destroy an enemy is to befriend him, make him a brother. The Paul gives this instruction: “Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head” (Rom. 12:20). So, the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make him your friend, your brother.
This is why Jesus added: “But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?” (Matt. 5:44–46).
Paul’s “coals of fire” are shame, that causes an enemy to burn as David states: Psa 83:14 “As the fire burneth a wood, and as the flame setteth the mountains on fire; So persecute them with thy tempest, and make them afraid with thy storm. Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.”
In the seeking the Lord because of the shame caused by meeting their needs, they can become brothers in the Lord. It is not a sentimental emotion of love, it is Elisha leading the blind Syrian Army into the presence of the king where they could be killed and instead feeding them and sending them home well and they become friends and don’t invade again until the deed is forgotten. 2 Kings 6:13-22.
Shame, is a tool, it is leaving it to the Lord to do His will, but it is a product of recognizing evil in the presence of good deeds.
The motive is what counts. Only those who love God for no reason whatsoever and expect nothing from Him, are the one who love Him truly. I have ten fingers on my hand too many to count those.
You are in for a big surprise. God wrote the names of His family for the next heaven and earth from the foundation of this world --- and every one of us loves Him surpassingly above all else, including our neighbors - and ourselves. (Rev 20)
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matt 22:37-40
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