Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Since the sixteenth century, this chapter has been called the “high priestly prayer” of Jesus. He speaks as intercessor, with words addressed directly to the Father and not to the disciples, who supposedly only overhear. Yet the prayer is one of petition, for immediate (John 17:6-19) and future (John 17:20-21) disciples. Many phrases reminiscent of the Lord’s Prayer occur. Although still in the world (John 17:13), Jesus looks on his earthly ministry as a thing of the past (John 17:4, 12). Whereas Jesus has up to this time stated that the disciples could follow him (John 13:33, 36), now he wishes them to be with him in union with the Father (John 17:12-14).
Jesus is specifically praying for His disciples here. Not the world, but for the individuals that will make up the first officials of His Church.
Yes, God has pride, but with Him it is legimate, because He has something to be proud of!
The Father was proud of His Son and said so, did He not? (Mat.17)
The creature (Angels and Mankind) has no reason for having any pride in themselves. since everything they have comes from God.
Thus, it is God who must always get the glory, not man,
But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. (1Cor.10:17)
I thought that we already had established that man was created a little less than the angels, but when in everlasting life in Heaven, he is elevated to the point where he will judge the angels.
An emotional God, rather than an intellectual one?
Would you have supporting evidence?
Your God may not be dispassionate, but a Christian God is. He is because He is impartial, and immutable. This is, of course, all alien to those who look at God through anthropomorphic eyes of the Old Testament and see God as a moody giant.
"God is good, dispassionate, and immutable. Now someone who thinks it reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how, in that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, and as turning away from the wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions." (A. Kalomiros, "River of Fire")
Does God hate sin?
Consider that dispassionate means
Do you believe in a God who is swayed by passions, who can be bribed, who is prejudiced, and partial? Or do you just not understand some English words? Just what part about the dispassionate God do you find offensive?
Obviously not.
Matthew 23 :37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
The wicked perish because they hate God and do evil continuously. God has not willed them to do so, no more than you would will your children to grow up and become criminals.
All must repent for God is holy,and nothing unholy can be in His Presence
.Luke 13:2
And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
13:4 Or those eighteen , upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
You have no understanding of God if this is what you believe about Him. You can find out all about Him in the bible. God spoke to all of His prophets using pathos. Look it up
lol. "First officials?" Mark, that's just more unwarranted exclusivity by your magisterium.
Look at those words of Christ and tell me He's not counting you among His sheep?
I didn't realize it was either-or issue.
God's perfect attributes of Wisdom and Holiness control His emotions, that is why they are always perfect as well.
What do you consider Love to be?
And anger?
The fact that God is passionate does not imply that He can be swayed by the passions of others. His passions are perfect and self-contained and resolute.
In fact, it is the passion of God that sways men.
Yes, whole books have been written on the Divine Pathos, not the least of which is the bible
The fact that God is passionate does not imply that He can be swayed by the passions of others. His passions are perfect and self-contained and resolute.
In fact, it is the passion of God that sways men.
oops
An unfeeling 'god' is not a God that would die for His creation, it is only a 'force'.
Yes, some people want a “force”, so “it” can be with them. A personal God, talking face to face, like with Moses for example, must be too frightening. A personal relationship with Jesus is the essence of Christianity, but obviously many don’t believe or understand it.
No, while God is the first cause of everything, He is not necessarily the last cause of everything. Comparatively, the user of a Palm Pilot is the first AND last cause of everything. The Palm Pilot will not spit out data without specific and direct instructions/commands from the user. Yet, if God leaves the sinner alone, to the predestined degree, he will go out and actively commit sin. The Palm Pilot would just sit there.
And remember that we have as much access to Calvins works as you do!!!!
I'm sure that Calvin explains it much better than I could: :)
"Since we have seen that the domination of sin, from the time of its subjugation of the first man, not only extends over the whole race, but also exclusively possesses every soul; it now remains to be more closely investigated, whether we are despoiled of all freedom, and, if any particle of it yet remain, how far its power extends. . . ."
"Now when I assert that the will, being deprived of its liberty, is necessarily drawn or led into evil, I should wonder if anyone considered it as a harsh expression, since it has nothing in it absurd, nor is it unsanctioned by the custom of good men. It offends those who know not how to distinguish between necessity and compulsion. But if anyone should ask them whether God is not necessarily good, and whether the devil is not necessarily evil, what answer will they make? For there is such a close connection between the goodness of God and His divinity that His deity is not more necessary than His goodness. But the devil is by his fall so alienated from communion with all that is good that he can do nothing but what is evil. But if anyone should sacrilegiously object that little praise is due to God for His goodness, which He is constrained to preserve, shall we not readily reply that His inability to do evil arises from His infinite goodness and not from the impulse of violence? Therefore if a necessity of doing well impairs not the liberty of the divine will in doing well if the devil, who cannot but do evil, nevertheless sins voluntarily; who then will assert that man sins less voluntarily, because he is under a necessity of sinning? This necessity Augustine everywhere maintains, and even when he was pressed . . . he confidently expressed himself in these terms: "By means of liberty it came to pass that man fell into sin; but now the penal depravity consequent on it, instead of liberty, has introduced necessity." And whenever the mention of this subject occurs, he hesitates not to speak in this manner of the necessary servitude of sin. We must therefore observe this grand point of distinction, that man, having been corrupted by his fall, sins voluntarily, not with reluctance or constraint; with the strongest propensity of disposition, not with violent coercion; with the bias of his own passions, and not with external compulsion: yet such is the pravity of his nature that he cannot be excited and biased to anything but what is evil. . . ." (emphasis added)
"When the will of a natural man is said to be subject to the power of the devil, so as to be directed by it, the meaning is, not that it resists and is compelled to a reluctant submission, as masters compel slaves to an unwilling performance of their commands; but that, being fascinated by the fallacies of Satan, it necessarily submits itself to all his directions. For those whom the Lord does not favor with the government of His Spirit, He abandons in righteous judgment to the influence of Satan. . . ." (emphasis added)
"When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things have ever been, and perpetually remain, before His eyes, so that to His knowledge nothing is future or past, but all things are present: and present in such a manner that He does not merely conceive of them from ideas formed in His mind, as things remembered by us appear present to our minds, but really beholds and sees them as if actually placed before Him. And this foreknowledge extends to the whole world and to all the creatures. Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He hath determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others."
It reminds me of Oprah and her ilk, giving thanks to “the universe”, lol
Ummmmm....since our Lord Jesus was fully man as well as fully God, isn't He subject to all the human emotions we face?
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