Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
We have already discussed this. None of that guarantees the individual heaven, at least from our point of view. A sealed person can lose their inheritance, as Paul writes to Galatians, Hebrews, and the Corinthians. God won't forsake His children, but WE can forsake Him, as Paul writes to Timothy and the above communities. He loved us while we were yet sinners, and continues to love us. While not a dogmatic teaching, many believe that God loves even those in hell. So God's Love doesn't necessarily mean a person is free from hell. But some people do not reciprocate His love in the least. Those who do not obey God's will cannot enter into His presence. I do not think there is a clearer statement from the entire bible...
The Scriptures seems to indicate that God hands over to His wrath those who refuse God and His will. Even Jews. Thus, Paul tells Christians to beware that they do not falter, as well. Persevering in Christ is a predominant theme in the NT. I do not think it is to be taken so lightly.
Regards
That's certainly a reasonable assumption. We are not here to stay, so to God the time we spend on earth could be irrelevant. Since what we do does not affect our salvation or perdition, it is what happens afterwards that matters.
Whether you take a fast train or a slow train is irrelevant. Those who were "predestined" to believe will believe; those who were not will not, right? The reprobate will remain reprobate whether they live 1 day or 100 years according to your Reformed theology.
Ps 139:13 : For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. Do you suppose that knitting included congenital birth defects, abnormally strong heart muscles, below average immune systems, etc.?
Does God make retarded people? God doesn't "make" us. Parents make us following God's laws of procreation. Thus whatever corruption the parents have they give it to their offspring.
Or, do you suppose that we are made physically equal and everything after that happens by chance?
God created the world good. Whatever imperfcetion and evil exists in it is because our ancestral parents rejected the Good and became evil.
I don't think we can have any idea how long Adam lived in sin
His entire life, of course. His sin changed his nature and made it mortal. Mortality (death) is evidence of sinfulness. It's not only what we do and think, it's our nature or essence. Even if he didn't sin any more, he wanted to. And Christ tells us that even a lustful thought is a sin.
In my church we DO celebrate the lives of the departed. Of course, we also feel sorry for ourselves at our own loss
Somewhere in the NT it says we should not love the world. Obviously so many seem to disregard it. We love God but we love our world too, sometimes more, don't we? True Christians should be delighted at their loss! We should be celebrating the departure of the loved ones, because if you love your neighbor as yourself you would delight in their heavenly rewards, and the joy of their loss would pale any residual sorrow for their absence.
I would venture to say that our sorrow is a seed of doubt we all have but are afraid to admit. It is also an indication of how much we love the world.
God obviously wants His children here for a time for His reasons
Pure speculation. God could be completely dispassionate as regards our stay here. In fact, the eastern Church teaches that God is indeed dispassionate when ti comes to mankind.
One of which is to fulfill the Great Commission
Oh yeah? So how much of your free time do you spend evangelizing non-Christians? Or do you try to "fit" it in your busy schedule of other "fun things to do?" What priority in your life does the Great Commission take in your free time? First, second, third, after the football game, after BBQ; do your vacations go all towards the Great Commission...c'mon FK, you know what I mean. It's all talk and feel-good stuff. We put God on the back burner all the time. But a Pharisee would make it sound like he lives, drinks and talks nothing but God.
If we're all dead, then who is going to do the work?
God doesn't need us to do the work. He already did everything. The world is turning around all by itself.
Plus, we have to stay alive long enough to make more future Christians
I though God made all the elect from before foundation of the world according to your theology. We can't make Christians! And if He wants more, He certainly can make more. We could all be engaged in populating the earth 24/7/365!
Here, mankind benefits from the commission of sin, since if we never die, no one goes to be in Heaven with God
I thought God created us for His pleasure in your theology. Who cares if we benefit or not? It's not about us, or is it on Tuesdays and Thursdays?
“God created the world good. Whatever imperfcetion and evil exists in it is because our ancestral parents rejected the Good and became evil.”
“His entire life, of course. His sin changed his nature and made it mortal. Mortality (death) is evidence of sinfulness. It’s not only what we do and think, it’s our nature or essence.”
Wow! That sounds sooo Augustinian. Almost like original sin leaning heavily towards total depravity. Now maybe we can move on to the “U” in T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints
I don’t see allegorical interpretation in the sense that it was merely a vision to explain the fulfillment of the law and the prophesy, sort of like when Jesus spoke of sheep and gates there was no need for actual sheep and corrals for Him to say that.
When they do note is that Moses and Elijah represent a wider communion of Hebrew saints. But I don’t see any dispute that they are real Moses and real Elijah.
The fact that Moses was still in his tomb at the time does not bother these commentators. This can only be if Peter, John, and James saw the future, — but it was real future, not an allegory of the future.
” But I don’t see any dispute that they are real Moses and real Elijah.”
Peter confirms that.
2 Pet. 1:17-18, “For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
Sorry, horticulture theology never appealed to me very much. :)
Interesting proposition. In other words, they were transprted in time (into the future) and then returned? Time travel? Hmmmm.
Has all the makings of The Matrix...illusion, or maybe delusion. However, how does htis explain St. Peter's continued lack of faith? I mean, when the news came that the tomb was empty, St. peter did not raise his hands in the air and proclaimed, "I knew it!"
“I mean, when the news came that the tomb was empty, St. peter did not raise his hands in the air and proclaimed, “I knew it!”
Revelation, it is a revealed belief.
John 14:26, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
John 16:13-14, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
Right, and especially the surrounding verses where Peter makes sure none of it was "artificial fable" or his "private interpretation". He directly forestalls such thinking.
Also note, Kosta, the reference to "more firm prophetical word" in 2 Peter 1:19, supporting the prophetic nature of the Transfiguration miracle.
"Divine economy" means different things to different people, but if you are talking about an extra-scriptural man-made tradition, then you're right that I'm probably not familiar with it.
Until His death, in real time and in real place, on the Cross, no one could be free from death, neither those who died prior to this moment, nor those who were going to die.
So your model has God punishing those who were not fortunate enough to die after Christ did. Interesting. Doesn't this violate your ideas of God's fundamental fairness?
But the Church teaches that after His death on the Cross Christ descended into Hell and freed the OT righteous. The Apostolic Creed, as well as the 3rd century Syrian Creed, says that "He descended into hell." (or to the dead).
I have never agreed with this interpretation of the Creed that Christ LITERALLY went to hell. The suffering Christ went through for us WAS "hell". Plus, it would violate John 19:30: "It is finished", AND Luke 23:46: "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit."
In any event, if He physically died at around 3 p.m., and the new day started at 6 p.m., then He couldn't have spent very long in hell if He was going to keep His promise to the thief. :)
That's right. Good point. :)
Only someone who disregards Scripture could presume that God is dispassionate about His creation.
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." -- Hebrews 12:2
To paraphrase Goldie Hawn in "First Wives Club" -- "I'm an actress GOD! I've got ALL the emotions!!!"
Unbelievable. Someone who makes a statement like this has never cracked open the bible, or understood any it, if he has. God loved them so much that He gave His only Son to die for their sins.
Furthermore one thing that all the prophets reveal to us, over and over and over, is that God is sensitive and cares deeply about His creation. I don't know about you, but I often apologize to Him for all my stupidity, and it's great, I assure you
But Paul clearly applies the idea to all people. For example:
Rom 6:16-23 : 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves , you are slaves to the one whom you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
These are some of multiple examples, Paul is not only referring to himself.
A slave does not have free will; only a servant does. Do the rest of the Apostles identify themselves as slaves? No; as servants - servants with a free will who can leave the employ of their Master at will.
As you can see from above, Paul at least partially disagrees. This is where all the technicalities of what "freedom" is come into play. "Freedom" is one of those words that can be defined in apparently contradictory ways, and yet I would agree with both in context. Therefore, freedom is always limited, but to very different degrees, and at different times. So, it always depends on the context.
I could only find one other relevant reference to slavery by another Apostle:
2 Peter 2:19 : They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity — for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.
In both directions, this would appear to completely agree with the ideas Paul espouses. If Peter thought Christ was his master, and I'm sure we both think he did, then he doesn't appear to think that he was free to leave Him.
The example of the prodigal son has no meaning under Reformed theology except as a mechanical exercise - ...
Every story in the Bible has meaning to us. In many cases it is just a different meaning than to you. You are apparently saying that a parable has more meaning if it can be interpreted as giving man more powers in self-determination. That is not my view of "meaning". :)
If man is made in God’s image, then why would he throw the bulk of humanity away? I understand about the clay, but men are not pots, they are the pinnacle of His creation.
Then apparently you do NOT understand about the clay. :) I mean, it was God Himself who made the analogy. Why would He say that if not to give us a clear picture of the level of His sovereignty? God is free to do with His creation ANYTHING He chooses.
Ummm, wouldn’t you say that God was dispassionate about the bulk of humanity that He would throw into hellfire forever under Reformed theology?
Yes, I was just referring to the logical conclusion of such an interpretation of that particular verse in Matthew. If I was representing Catholicism to someone else I would say "grace plus works". I hope that would be fair. :)
Amen.
Man was made in God's image and likeness and that includes emotions!
Amen.
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