Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
-A8
“What do you think is the difference between a title and a proper name?”
The descriptive theory of proper names is the view that the meaning of a given use of a proper name is a set of properties that can be expressed as a description that picks out an object that satisfies the description.
-A8
It's the difference between solace and brow-beating?
What difference does it make? You asked for a proper name and I gave you one according to the definition. If it also can be a title, so what?
Only God knows who are wheat and who are tares and those to whom the Spirit witnesses that they are the Children of God. It is not our business to sort them out, just to be faithful to the light given us.
The problem with Mormonism and JWism (and Catholicism for that matter) is that those who fall into error do so because their focus is not on Christ and Christ alone, but their primary focus is on their Religion and their Church and the teachings of their Church leaders and their man-made traditions.
When your focus is truly on Christ, when you strip away all the rituals and traditions of men and turn your focus on the risen Lord, then THE LORD WILL LEAD YOU. You have his promise that he will NOT lead you astray.
That's like saying:
You asked for the proper name of the President of the United States. I gave you a proper name: "President of the United States". If it can also be a title, so what?
These semantic and sophistical contortions in order to avoid answering the question are straining credulity almost to the point of mirth and ridicule. They are an indication that the answer to the question is something that you don't want uncovered.
-A8
*fru raises his hand
When I focus directly on Christ, he leads me to the Catholic Church. Imagine that!
“They are an indication that the answer to the question is something that you don’t want uncovered.”
The answer to your question is still the Children of God. You don’t like it because it includes more than your parochial definition.
John 10:16, “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
The irony is that you are getting this idea from the book formed by and within the Church. So you want the Church's book, but you reject the Church's interpretational authority. There is no promise in Scripture that you, as lone ranger interpreter, are guaranteed to get your theological ducks in a row. The promise Christ gives to His apostles to lead them into all truth ("But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth" - John 16:13) is not a promise that gnostic individualists will be protected from heresy. The promise is specifically to the Apostles, and to their successors, the bishops. We are promised to be led into all truth only insofar as we adhere to the Apostles and their episcopal successors, not with the me-and-my-Bible-and-my-burning-in-the-bosom individualistic methodology.
-A8
Good. Stay open to his leading. He may lead you elsewhere, he may prefer to leave you where you are.
He planted me in the Mormon Church and later led me away. As long as you put HIS Yoke upon you and let him do the steering, you should be ok. If you put the yoke of some organization or some man upon you, then you are sure to end up lost.
Keep the focus on Christ. And stay open to the idea that there are sheep who are not of your fold.
It has nothing to do with like or dislike. I asked for a proper name, and you gave me a title.
-A8
I dare say, A8, that from your posts here it is clear that YOUR focus in on THE CHURCH and not on Christ. Everything in your world revolves around YOUR CHURCH and how the whole of Christianity is beholden to the efforts of YOUR CHURCH.
The scriptures were preserved not because of YOUR CHURCH, but because God preserved them. YOUR CHURCH was merely a tool in God's hands. I have no need to thank YOUR CHURCH for the scriptures. God preserved them. He didn't need YOUR CHURCH to do that.
Turn your focus to Christ and Christ alone. Take HIS yoke upon you and cast away that Yoke that has been put upon you by YOUR CHURCH.
I must leave now, will catch up later.
Thanks for your contribution Alex...very well articulated. As you said, Catholics should get it in our heads that not all Reformed Christians hold to the “Trail of Blood” stuff. Nothing ruins an argument like that kind of bull-in-a-china-shop imprecision. Aquinas would be very disappointed. >:-(
Anyway, if I hear you right, even though you hold that Grace may well have been operative within the Catholic Church all along, there was some sort of doctrinal “corruption” that happened along the way. And you rightly recognize that there’s a difference of opinion on when/how/why/and by what agent that corruption happened.
It’s that very difference of opinion that is interesting to me. There are people who place the corruption right after Pentecost (!!!), others think that it was more toward the Middle Ages. The most general consensus hovers around Constantine. But I have yet to see—beyond vague claims—someone actually *establish* historically and convincingly when the Catholic Church changed from one to the other by citing the primary source documents and the Church Fathers.
If this corruption happened there should be historical evidence of it. And yes, it may well have been gradual...but even so, one should still find traces of it in the historical record. Because I find it hard to believe that it was SO gradual that no one noticed even it until Luther!! :)
LOL! Touche'!
I'm going to ignore these ad hominems.
The scriptures were preserved not because of YOUR CHURCH, but because God preserved them.
That claim contains implicitly the assumption that God and man cannot both be effacious and concurrent causal agents in the same action. That is the assumption that underlies the false dichotomy of deism on the one hand, and occasionalism on the other hand.
YOUR CHURCH was merely a tool in God's hands.
I agree that we are all tools in God's hands.
I have no need to thank YOUR CHURCH for the scriptures.
That's like saying to your mother: "I have no need to thank you for my existence. God created me, so @&%$ off."
God preserved them. He didn't need YOUR CHURCH to do that.
Indeed. God does not *need* us. But He has chosen to let us be partakers in the preservation and advancement of the gospel.
Turn your focus to Christ and Christ alone. Take HIS yoke upon you and cast away that Yoke that has been put upon you by YOUR CHURCH.
I appreciate your intentions. But Hebrews 13:17 tells us: "Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account." Which leaders are you obeying and submitting to? I can understand your hesitancy about ecclesial leaders, having been burned by Mormon leaders. But there's the verse right there. The key is to find the truly authorized leaders, not those who set themselves up as leaders.
-A8
I’ll say the same to you!
Good. Stay open to his leading. He may lead you elsewhere, he may prefer to leave you where you are.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.