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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

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To: blue-duncan
Indeed. Thank you so much for those excellent Scripture selections, dear brother in Christ!
5,221 posted on 09/02/2007 9:17:55 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you oh so very much for those beautiful passages and for sharing your insights!

"They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them." -- Isaiah 65:23

What a glorious promise!

Praise God!!!

5,222 posted on 09/02/2007 9:21:48 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; .30Carbine
There are several "christian" beliefs that seem to deem the Holy Spirit a moron.. Like they "aim" him then "push" him toward some direction.. At least it seems that way.. I fear for these people..

Yes, I get the exact same impression. So far, I've been chalking it up to man wanting to always be in control. It seems the Holy Spirit would be the likeliest target for manipulation, since of the Three He is the least understood by most people.

5,223 posted on 09/02/2007 9:22:51 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan
Indeed. As the Song of Moses begins:

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. – Deu 32:1-4

Praise God!!!

5,224 posted on 09/02/2007 9:27:06 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
Some people will do or say anything to justify their rejection of God. The "just-so stories" they produce are usually not only unscientific, but also irrational.

So very true and well said, dearest sister in Christ!

5,225 posted on 09/02/2007 9:28:47 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The greatest truth is not science, which is basically exponential conjecture. The greatest truth is God's will, at least for those given eyes to see and ears to hear.

All others pay cash.

Excellent! Thank you, dear sister in Christ!

5,226 posted on 09/02/2007 9:30:46 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: wmfights
Who other than God creates something from nothing?

Indeed. God is the only possible uncaused cause.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

To God be the glory!

5,227 posted on 09/02/2007 9:33:27 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Forest Keeper
[.. Yes, I get the exact same impression. So far, I've been chalking it up to man wanting to always be in control. It seems the Holy Spirit would be the likeliest target for manipulation, since of the Three He is the least understood by most people. ..]

The Holy Spirit cannot BE manipulated.. lead or duped..
Any that seem to be trying should be marked mentally and watched/monitored..
For whom they are trying to control is YOU..

5,228 posted on 09/02/2007 9:36:20 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Forest Keeper
So far, I've been chalking it up to man wanting to always be in control. It seems the Holy Spirit would be the likeliest target for manipulation, since of the Three He is the least understood by most people.

Indeed. As if God could be manipulated. Jeepers...

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

Maranatha, Jesus!

5,229 posted on 09/02/2007 9:37:05 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg
How could I know what it includes, since I disagree with the premise in the first place?

Okay, then what is your take on the "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven?"

Preaching the Gospel is not binding or loosening. The binding (deo) is to tie, fasten, put under obligation and to loosen (luo) to un-tie, as in dissolving a matrimony...it's a very deliberate act, niot something like preaching.

Why "must" it be the priest who asks for forgiveness?

Because different people have been ordained different roles in the church, and binding and loosening is part of the apostolic clergy. Because God wants the Church to do His work on earth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So, if the priests in good faith and prayer forgives you, then it is forgiven in heaven as well. That is the promise we know from Mat 18:18.

You quoted: Jer 15:19 (a) : Therefore this is what the Lord says: "If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me

Sounds like an "if-then" works-based salvation to me. Why are you quoting it? It also leaves the decision to repent to man. Oh, no! Does that mean we are in control? You may wish to retract this verse...

5,230 posted on 09/02/2007 9:58:38 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; irishtenor
Mark: It departs from the Gospels and from much of the Bible, though, to discard the greatest of His creations - man - to roast in hellfire forever for His pleasure.

FK: The Bible says that those who do not believe go to hell. That is God's justice, and those people get what they want

FK, you keep using circular logic. Those who don't believe don't believe because God didn't give them the faith according to your (Reformed) theology. So, why, then, are they "condemned" for the lack of faith?

According to your theology, before foundation of the world, God decided He would make a multitude of people of which certain portion will be saved and the rest discarded and sentenced to eternal suffering. That's not the God of the Gospels.

5,231 posted on 09/02/2007 10:10:24 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Coyoteman; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; MHGinTN; .30Carbine; blue-duncan; irishtenor; ...
The greatest truth is not science, which is basically exponential conjecture. The greatest truth is God's will, at least for those given eyes to see and ears to hear.

All others pay cash

Those who have cash can show it. You can only talk about it.

5,232 posted on 09/02/2007 10:18:45 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; D-fendr; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; irishtenor; wmfights; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl
Kosta: Moreover, the Reformed (Calvinists) cannot assume that a baby is innocent because the soul of the baby is already dead in sin

Dr. E: You continue to misstate the reformed position, Kosta

Are you saying the Refromed theology does not say that we are born dead in sin and that we are destined to hell, unless born again of the Spirit?

Furthermore, is it not your theology that only those "justified" end up in heaven, or is there a chance that the "justified" also end up in hell?

5,233 posted on 09/02/2007 10:32:13 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
[.. Those who have cash can show it. You can only talk about it. ..]

That was weak..

5,234 posted on 09/02/2007 10:32:25 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; hosepipe; D-fendr; MHGinTN; Elise; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; P-Marlowe; ...
However, as time progressed, the Apostles could no longer heal by all accounts. +Paul doesn't heal Timothy's stomach problems (1 Tim 5:23), but offers him more of a "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" advice. +Paul also could not heal his friend (Phlp 2:26-27), but instead says that "God had mercy on him." Nor could +Paul heal himself (Galatians 4:13-15, 2 Corinthians 12:7-9).

What accounts, these? How do you conclude that because they didn't, that they couldn't? That isn't indicated anywhere. You are inventing their motives. Wasn't the real point of healings to stir faith in the lost? In all four of your examples, the afflicted one was already a mature follower of Christ. Perhaps they believed it would have been a misuse of power, I don't know. It just seems to me to be too coincidental by half that all of the supernatural powers that the men of the Church have claimed to receive by Apostolic succession just so happen to be all the unprovable ones. :)

Using your standards of "proof" then you should immediately dismiss +Paul as credible authority because he (and all the Apostles) eventually lost the power of miracles (assuming they had them to begin with).

No, I assume that they did have the powers and kept them. I don't know if there is any scripture to the contrary, but that they didn't in some cases use thier powers does not cut it as meaning that they couldn't. Remember, Paul counted his affliction as a true blessing. If He healed himself (or was healed by another Apostle) then it would have been to counter God, in his mind.

Obviously those who perform miracles must be the "true" people of God, right?

True Apostles, yes. They performed miracles, and then they died.

+Paul warns us (was it because his own healing powers were slipping?): "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness"--2 Cor 11:13-15

Paul was exactly correct. Those who claim to have the powers of the Apostles are FALSE apostles, masquerading. :)

So, if you base your 'conversion' on who can heal and who can't, you are just as likely to believe Satan as you are God.

I couldn't base it on that because in today's times, no one, to my knowledge, can reliably heal.

5,235 posted on 09/02/2007 11:30:45 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
I couldn't base it on that because in today's times, no one, to my knowledge, can reliably heal.

Perhaps. Or perhaps they're not on cable or performing in tent shows.

5,236 posted on 09/02/2007 11:51:47 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: MarkBsnr
Do you believe that you move God with your prayers?

I'm not precisely sure what you mean by "move". However, I do not think I change God's mind. God has already decided what is going to happen, and already knows on what and how many times I am going to pray about any given thing. That does not negate the value of prayer at all, though. Prayer is communication with God, and He says He wants that communication. Regardless of the outcome of the object of the prayer (e.g., my aunt Ethel lives or dies), I am always better off for having made the prayer.

Are your prayers answered?

Yes, the three general categories of responses are "yes", "no", or "wait". Of course, there are variations on each.

Are you now managing God, if that is the case?

I don't know what you mean here. It wouldn't occur to me to "manage" God in the normal sense.

5,237 posted on 09/02/2007 11:58:58 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor; P-Marlowe; Seven_0; blue-duncan
FK: "I was trying to confirm whether or not God gives equally to all for salvation in your view."

The standard answer is that God gives to each what He knows they are capable of (the talents). The failure to realize the talents given is to our condemnation because we are to give to others what was freely given to us and because we must not love the world. We cannot serve two masters, and money is the source of all evil. That's why it will be harder for the rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (which is a mistranslation, by the way). (emphasis added)

Then I'm afraid I do not understand the standard answer. I could follow the reasoning if you said that God gave in equal portions to everyone because God doesn't play favorites. However, it seems to me you are making a proportion argument, that God gives to everyone based on some sort of criteria, you said what "they are capable of". (What does that mean, BTW? :)

[This idea is bolstered by your final statement: "So, when God gives 'equally' to everyone, it is "equal" in the just way, affecting each equally, not quantity-wise."]

Anyway, this fails if we also say that rich men are less likely to go to Heaven because according to you, God would have compensated for their wealth-seeking propensities in order to be proportional with everyone else. Isn't that right? IOW, if the standard answer was correct, and God was truly proportional in distributing His grace to everyone based on what they could handle, THEN we should expect to see as many rich men in Heaven as from any other type of demographic.

Of course I'm assuming that your meaning is that those in the greater need can "handle" more grace. (?) Please correct me if I am wrong, but that would seem to be the only interpretation if everyone has a fair shot at getting into Heaven.

In order for the fine to be "just" the rich man needs to pay more. Otherwise the punishment is unequal and unequal punishment is unequal justice.

Not surprisingly, I agree with Seven that this isn't Biblical. The punishment for sin is the same for all. PLUS, you are arguing for a progressive criminal justice system. Is that REALLY what you would like to see??? :) Under your system, the transient who commits murder would get a much lighter sentence because his time and liberty would be considered "worth less" than the same time and liberty to an honest, hardworking taxpayer with a family. Is that your idea of justice?

You simply CANNOT means-test criminal law. The result would be that those with the least would be encouraged to commit the most crime because the penalties would be less. I don't think they need any more incentive. :) That is squarely against public policy and is partly why that is not our system now.

5,238 posted on 09/03/2007 2:05:56 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: tiki
FK: "I have said before that if all Apostolic priests and/or Bishops could heal, and no one else could, then I would probably convert instantly."

So would a lot of people but then it would be proof rather than faith.

Well, Christ certainly went all over the place, performing many miracles. Why? Wasn't it to offer "proof" that He was Who He said He was? To me, faith is obviously the only thing that matters, but it just seems to me that proof by signs is "one tool" that can be used to foster that inner growing faith. I think of Thomas. Here is the money verse:

John 20:29 : Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

This is clear to me that Jesus used physical proof to cause belief, IN THIS CASE, making it, at least legitimate.

5,239 posted on 09/03/2007 2:19:41 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Coyoteman
a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness.

And a valid theory is one that has facts to support it.

What you are talking about is not 'theory' but a paradigm, which organizes facts into a contextual system of thought.

5,240 posted on 09/03/2007 2:26:57 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (We must beat the Democrats or the country will be ruined! - Lincoln)
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