Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Let me be clear that I don't necessarily mean the extreme "Trail of Blood"-type historians. Even Lutherans, Calvinists, even somewhat Catholic-minded Anglicans assert on some level that Rome corrupted the pure Gospel of the early centuries.
If there's a Protestant group that doesn't hold to that, I'd be happy to be corrected on that score, but I don't know of any.
“Do you know what a proper name is?”
Here is another answer. If you are being lead by the Holy Spirit, just add your name to the list. That will also satisfy the “proper name” test.
What about infanticide, genocide, Satanism? How deep does your relativism go?
-A8
I appreciate that. Some of your fellow Catholics on FR believe that all Protestants buy into the "Trail of Blood" stuff. I'm glad to hear you don't make the same sweeping generalities that they do.
Even Lutherans, Calvinists, even somewhat Catholic-minded Anglicans assert on some level that Rome corrupted the pure Gospel of the early centuries.
Now this I would modify, at least to say when and how rapidly Rome "modified" the gospel, and perhaps more importantly, to spell out if anyone could be saved/sanctified anyway (under the modified gospel). I'm not one who believes that no one could be justified/sanctified before the Reformation, but then again there are Catholics on FR who would accuse all Protestants of believing just this. So while I do believe that there was a "corruption" of doctrine in history prior to the Reformation, I do not believe that God's grace had been lifted from the Catholic Church, or that the Catholic Church wasn't part of the "true" Church in some way, prior to the Reformation (or beyond).
If there's a Protestant group that doesn't hold to that, I'd be happy to be corrected on that score, but I don't know of any.
Well, you can put me down as one. And I'd be willing to bet there are others out there, just like me.
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. - I Cor 6:1-4
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. - Romans 2:1
First, you didn't answer my question: Do you know what a proper name is?
Second, your reply is equivalent to replying to the question: "What is the proper name of the current President of the United States?" by saying:
"The actions of the President of the United States will conform to the Constitution's directives regarding the actions of the President of the United States. That should satisfy the "proper name" test."
-A8
-A8
Forgive this intrusion into your exchanges. I would like to address this important question.
Satan comes as an Angel of light. Scripture relates that such deception will come upon mankind that if the times were not shortened the very elect would be drawn into the deceit. How can we know whom the elect are? Well, eventually the transforming work of the Holy Spirit within a 'faither' (one living a new life by faith plugged in to His faith, the Faith OF Jesus Christ as lived on Calvary confident of Resurrection morning) will bring forth fruit of His Spirit. The Just...ified shall live by Faith, have new life showing forth by Faith, not by works of seeming righteousness they can do, for such will Jesus say 'depart from me I never knew you.' And lest you forget, the scripture tells us those ordered to depart had just claimed to have done miracles in His name! To 'know me' is to live in me and show Himself out through me; Him transforming me, not me working hard to imitate.
Mormonism teaches that after all the Mormon adherent can do, then the Atonement of Christ, by Christ will be applied to the person; the Bible states clearly in numerous places that the just shall live by faith, that new life will come forth not by the works the person does to obtain but by the works the Spirit does within, living in the faither, transforming from within the person as they live life humble before the One Whom Purchased them for Himself (His Bride, if you will).
So, when Mormons claim the Holy Spirit is leading them to work for their salvation or work to keep their salvation promised to them, is that the message, the work, the power of the Holy Spirit? Since such an message contradicts what scripture clearly teaches, the answer is a resounding no. But their is a spirit leading them, leading them down the broad road, and too many will defend this journey down the broad road of error, pleading 'let's exhibit the spirit of peace and love, and coddle these Mormons on their journey.'
If you saw a man riding arduously a bicycle, blindfolded, heading directly toward a deep chasm before him, would you clear a path for him to that destruction, or would you try to divert his course?
I often point to Romans 11 on issues like this. An assembly of men may be Spirit filled and/or Spirit led and subsequently fall into grievous error. And they can be restored. The Jews are a good example of both. ("Boast not against the branches.") And as Paul warns in Romans 11, we Christians can do the same.
These verses in no way forbid or prohibit forming or expressing an opinion about the rightness or wrongs of others' actions, character or beliefs.
-A8
FWIW, I was born into Mormonism. It was something over which I had no control. But I can say with assurance that the Holy Spirit led me while I was a Mormon. He eventually led me away from Mormonism and I can say with assurance that he has brought me to where I am today.
A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. (Psalms 23:1-2 KJV)
If the Lord is your shepherd he will lead you beside the still waters. You'll get there as long as you let HIM lead.
Frankly, I don't know what all this fuss is about. No one is saying that Catholics are not being led by the Holy Spirit, but they seem to insist that everyone else is being led by the devil. If there is a schism in Christianity it is because the RCC insists that it, and it alone, is the arbiter of truth. IMO, those who make that contention leave no room for the working of the Holy Spirit.
Some of our Catholic friends seem to think that we protestants have no unity of fellowship, which, of course, is nonsense. When your focus is on Christ, then you have fellowship will all believers who are so focused. When your focus is on your particular sect or church, then you have no fellowship with those who are not so focused.
-A8
I am to judge the matter (the thing, the event, etc.) but not the person. Or as the Baptists would say, "hate the sin, love the sinner."
Perhaps you can afford the measurements you use on others to be used on yourself?
But I cannot afford it. And I will follow the Spirit's leading on this, not you.
i’d hazard a guess that all those separated from Rome beleive Rome changed something sometime ;p
P-M, you talk like all we need is "focus on Christ", but then you think JWs and Mormons are in error for not recognizing the deity of Christ and for falling (in some sense) into the error of Pelagianism or semi-Pelagianism. So your right hand seems to be unaware of what your left hand is doing. You pretend like its all just "Jesus", but if we scratch a little deeper, we find that you have theological criteria that must be met. Which is it: just "focus on Jesus", or does true faith require affirming some further theological propositions (i.e. the Nicene Creed)?
-A8
To God be the glory!
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