Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
And who taught you that??? The author of the Bible or the leader of a religion???
I already know the answer and I agree 100%...
-A8
Like space/time, causality, mathematical structures, every thing and every one - logic is part of the Creation - not a restriction on the Creator.
A thing is true because He says it.
We must believe Him unreservedly to follow Him. When Christ told Peter to come to Him across the water, while Peter believed everything was fine, but when he noticed the water, he sank.
iscool: And who taught you that??? The author of the Bible or the leader of a religion???
You didn't get that out of the Bible...I'll bet you got that from studying philosophy...Don't you remember God said to avoid philosophy???
It’s a circular question for the answer is in the question. The notable thing that’s missing is any need for a professional mediator.
Romans 8:14, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
Romans 8:16, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
I have already explained to you in past discussions why your claims about God and logic are false. I laid it out very carefully. And you never refuted it, nor did anyone else. So it appears to me that if I lay out the problem with your position, you simply ignore it, and then keep repeating your position.
I'll try one more time to show you why it is false. If you ignore what I'm saying, then I will leave you to your folly.
Logic is indeed not a restriction on God. That is correct. That is not because God can violate logic, but because God is not "restricted" by His own nature, by the nature of Being, just as God's being unable to sin (and unable to lie, and unable to make Himself cease to exist) is not a "restriction" on His freedom. And logic is a science of Being. That is why acknowledging that God is not restricted by logic does not require conceding that contradictory claims about God can both be true at that same time and in the same sense. As I have explained to you before, claiming that the LNC does not apply to claims about God is self-refuting, for it implies that it itself is both true and false, at the same time and in the same sense. Take every verse in the Bible, and put a negation sign in front of it, and thus make an "Anti-Bible". Then the implication of your position is that the Anti-Bible, and the Bible, are both true, and they are both false, at the same time and in the same sense.
In other words, the implication of your view about God and logic is that we can *know* absolutely nothing about God. But you always leave a little exception for yourself. Your exception is that your own claim about God's relation to logic is not itself subject to itself. And that little exception is the fatal flaw that tears down the whole charade.
-A8
I'm looking for proper names of human persons, and/or the proper name of a denomination. The question: "Which human beings are following the Spirit such that what they believe and teach most accurately conforms to the whole of the Apostle’s doctrine/teaching?" does not contain the proper name of any humans or the proper name of any denomination. Therefore, it is not a "circular question" because the answer to the question is not in the question.
-A8
Priest and elder are two different words in Greek...They are two different words in English...And I'm not really interested in what some Latin translations are...
Then you are uninterested in the proper etymology of the word. It was the English who coined the word "priest" as their rendering of presbuteros. This was its first meaning. It was only latter that its meaning was extended to include what the Greeks called hiereus. This latter extension of meaning does not invalidate the original meaning of the word.
But all of this is much ado about nothing. The office of priest/presbyter/elder/presbuteros predates its name in English. For the sake of clarity I have no problem with using the original Greek terms. Thus it still remains that the Biblical offices of episkopos, presbuteros and diakonos continue to exist among the Catholics and Orthodox but not among the Protestants.
You have the answer;
Romans 8:14, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
Romans 8:16, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
Now you may not like what you percieve as the uncertainty in it but that’s God’s business and like Jesus said to Peter when he tried to divert the piercing glare of the Master’s eyes, “What’s it to you?, you follow me”.
Christianity is a messy business since each is called individually in their own circumstances and it is for the most part “on the job training”. But if there is a lesson to be learned it is to let God do it His way or like Uzzah, we will find out the hard way He needs no help.
Again, for the record, not to restart the previous debate - my position is this:
Faith and reason are complementary, but reason cannot substitute for faith.
The above is a reflection of my personal epistemology and the epistemology I expect to see in my brothers and sisters in Christ. How we know what we know and how certain we are that we actually know it.
The most certain knowledge I possess are the revelations of God the Father in:
2) the indwelling Holy Spirit,
3) Scripture and
4) Creation.
Again I say, I do not value even my own senses in the same league with the revelations of God the Father. If what I see does not comport with what He said, then it is my sight that is in error, not His words.
Hello Petrosius,
Consider the main duties that a Priest has in scripture. He is able to offer sacrifices and is able to enter into the Holy of Holies.
The reason most non-Catholic churches do not have this specific office, is that through Christ we have all become priests.
As you come to him, the living Stone- rejected by men but chosen by God, and precious to him- you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pet 2:4-5)
Each of us can offer sacrifices to God, each of us can come before His presence rightious, not because we are rightious, but because of Christ’s perfect sacrifice. We need no mediator between God and man, because Christ has become our High Priest and fulfills this role perfectly.
When Jesus died, the curtain of the temple, beyond which only certain priests could go, was torn in two (Mt 27:51). Each of us can now go into God’s presence, through Christ.
The existence of a priestly class which stands between men and God is one of the traditional critiques of the Catholic church for this reason.
Christianity is a messy business since each is called individually in their own circumstances and it is for the most part “on the job training”. But if there is a lesson to be learned it is to let God do it His way or like Uzzah, we will find out the hard way He needs no help.
Forgive me for jumping in the middle of your sidebar discussion. I’ve been following this thread and am trying to see if I understand this point correctly.
Adiaireton8-You want AG to figure out what body of Christians is most accurately teaching/following the Scriptures (in a nutshell), correct?
A-G, you are saying that the Holy Spirit is the one imparting truth to you. Correct? And that if the Holy Spirit is telling A8 one truth and you another that it doesn’t matter as long as we have our own truth given to us by the Spirit?
So it doesn’t really matter what anyone believes as long as we believe it comes from the Holy Spirit. That really confuses me. Did Jesus really leave us nothing but the Spirit and our own minds to interpret what the Spirit is telling us? That’s it? Then all this disagreement between different religions is nonsense? No one should have a problem with Catholics that honor Mary if that is what the Holy Spirit tells us to do? Boy, the Religion Moderator will be out of a job pretty soon then!
Now, A-G, if that is not what you believe please explain more to me. Maybe you really do believe that there is a group (all led by the Holy Spirit, of course) on Earth that is teaching more accurately than others.
Romans 8:14, “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
That is an answer to a different question. That is an answer to the question: What characterizes the sons of God? Or What is true about those who are led by the Spirit? But it does not answer my question: Which particular human beings [identified with proper names] and which denomination [identified with its proper name] most accurately conforms in its doctrine to the whole of the Apostle’s doctrine/teaching?
Romans 8:16, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
To understand why this verse does not answer my question, see the "Epistemological Objections" of this post that Gamecock posted this morning.
-A8
When I was younger growing up in church, during the Evening Service we sang an old hymn that captures the Romans 8 verses:
God Leads His Dear Children Along
by G.A. Young
In shady, green pastures, so rich and so sweet,
God leads His dear children along;
Where the water’s cool flow bathes the weary one’s feet,
God leads His dear children along.
Some through the waters, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood;
Some through great sorrow, but God gives a song,
In the night season and all the day long.
Sometimes on the mount where the sun shines so bright,
God leads His dear children along;
Sometimes in the valley, in darkest of night,
God leads His dear children along.
Some through the waters, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood;
Some through great sorrow, but God gives a song,
In the night season and all the day long.
Though sorrows befall us and evils oppose,
God leads His dear children along;
Through grace we can conquer, defeat all our foes,
God leads His dear children along.
Some through the waters, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood;
Some through great sorrow, but God gives a song,
In the night season and all the day long
Since I do not "value reason above or equal to faith", you are not talking about me.
Faith and reason are complementary, but reason cannot substitute for faith.
Of course I agree. I'm Catholic. (See Fides et Ratio.)
But none of that entails that contradictory claims about God can both be true at the same time and at the same sense.
-A8
In other words, it is not whether "we believe" the Spirit is leading us, but rather whether He actually, truly is leading us.
Gritting one's teeth, covering his ears, stomping the ground and muttering "Jesus Christ is Lord" will not do.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.