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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

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To: kosta50; irishtenor; Alamo-Girl
Remember, we Orthodox believe that the Latins changed theology and this resulted in the Schism. The same happened with Luther & Co. They reinterpreted Paul and started teaching a different faith and left the Catholic Church.

Actually, I wasn't certain whether the view was change in theology or simple mistake. (Maybe there's no difference.) Of course, there can be no doubt that the Reformers broke away theologically. It remains a matter of great contention whether the Reformers reinterpreted Paul back to the original or invented something new.

I would agree that it is not necessarily intuitive that the Apostolics got it "so wrong" so fast, but we do have two things. First is AG's point that many documents were destroyed early on, so who can say for sure? Second, we have all the examples from the OT. It happened over and over again that immediately after God set the ship straight that the Israelites quickly steered it off course again. It is possible that the same thing happened to the Apostolic wing of the Christian Church.

4,641 posted on 08/27/2007 5:14:00 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Nobody is holier than anyone else? Really? Fascinating. I’ve been very seriously instructed here that there different seats in Heaven, or we wear different clothes, or something.

Well, you certainly didn't hear it from me. In my Bible it says everyone will cast down their crowns. It all belongs to Christ.

4,642 posted on 08/27/2007 5:26:12 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: MarkBsnr
Those who claim that indulgences are no longer part of Church teaching have the admirable desire to distance themselves from abuses that occurred around the time of the Protestant Reformation.

I understand the principles of indulgences. I'm more interested in the technicalities of the issue. Catholics make sweeping pronouncements that the Pope cannot be wrong on matters of faith. Yet, paying for indulgences is one obvious instance where the Pope was wrong about an issue of faith. You even state that any self-respecting Catholics distances themselves from this. All the "Yes, but..." or lenghty articles won't hide this fact that, at least at one point in history, the Pope was indeed wrong about a matter of faith. One would think that would cast some sort of doubt on the doctrine of infallibility.

4,643 posted on 08/27/2007 5:35:14 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: irishtenor
If God calls, YOU WILL ANSWER.

He's always calling, I pray more so that I may answer more..

4,644 posted on 08/27/2007 5:35:49 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr
And here I was hoping a non-Calvinist Protestant was joining the thread. Oh well...

What??? Are there others??? :O)

4,645 posted on 08/27/2007 5:36:14 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: D-fendr

He only has to call you once, and he doesn’t have to leave a voice mail, either.


4,646 posted on 08/27/2007 5:37:06 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: irishtenor
Thanks for your reply:

Why do you have such a hard time with it?

Because it is a different view of God, a view that I don't know through scriptures or personal experience. Coincidentally it's not the view of God that the Church teaches now or ever has taught. It's not the Jesus I read in scripture. It's not the view of God of the Saints.

Now I don't doubt that theologians can arrive at quite complex and solid arguments to the contrary. But I would look first to the Saints as the true interpreters of scripture..

Anyway, you see my dilemna, my "hard time with it" is really not that hard for me.. Who am I gonna believe? Calvin or my lyin' eyes? :)

4,647 posted on 08/27/2007 5:38:33 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: irishtenor
He only has to call you once, and he doesn’t have to leave a voice mail, either.

LOL! I think we've finally beaten this analogy to death.. ;0)

4,648 posted on 08/27/2007 5:39:45 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr; P-Marlowe; HarleyD; xzins; Gamecock

It has nothing to do with Calvin. Look at the text I gave you. Why did God destroy the entire population? Was it right? Did he have that right? Does he have that right, now?

If God didn’t have that right, and he did it, God sinned. You know that can’t happen, so, God must have had that right to destroy everybody except those eight HE decided to save. If he had that right then, he still has the right to destroy anybody he wants, now.


4,649 posted on 08/27/2007 5:42:33 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: D-fendr

Does God use a cell phone? Or can he just reach out and touch someone? :>0


4,650 posted on 08/27/2007 5:43:42 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: irishtenor

Hehe.. I dunno, but His coverage is excellent...


4,651 posted on 08/27/2007 5:46:09 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr

***Coincidentally it’s not the view of God that the Church teaches now or ever has taught. ***

I agree with that.

***It’s not the Jesus I read in scripture.***

It’s not just Jesus, it’s also what God did in the OT, also. God never changes.

***It’s not the view of God of the Saints.***

I am a saint, and it is what I believe. You, also, are a saint. Paul calls all those who believe saints.


4,652 posted on 08/27/2007 5:48:20 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: D-fendr

Bet he never gets dropped calls, either :>)


4,653 posted on 08/27/2007 5:49:02 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: irishtenor
It’s not just Jesus, it’s also what God did in the OT, also. God never changes.

But man's revelation and understanding of God does and has. Either we are talking about two different Gods - even in different readings of the OT - or Jesus brought us good news about our Father that wasn't fully known before. I believe the latter.

I am a saint, and it is what I believe.

I appreciate that, I was referring to much older saints. ;)

You, also, are a saint.

No, in my understanding of saint, I most definitely am not one.

4,654 posted on 08/27/2007 6:03:45 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: irishtenor

And excellent customer service, although the hidden fees can cause quite a jolt.

[ we really must stop this sometime soon.. ;) ]


4,655 posted on 08/27/2007 6:07:59 PM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr

***I appreciate that, I was referring to much older saints. ;)***

Hey, I’m over 50 :>)

***No, in my understanding of saint, I most definitely am not one.***

By Pauls understanding, you are: 1 Cor. 1
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

I’d trust Paul in this :>)


4,656 posted on 08/27/2007 6:08:21 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: D-fendr

But what a “family and friend” selection :>)

Why stop, this is fun.

I wonder if Paul and Silas used a “cell” phone to call to God while they were in prison :>)


4,657 posted on 08/27/2007 6:11:21 PM PDT by irishtenor (There is no "I" in team, but there are two in IDIOT.)
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To: DungeonMaster

Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

It was the bishop of the area, not the priest, who conferred it by the laying on of hands. Your pardon for the confusion.


4,658 posted on 08/27/2007 6:37:43 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: hosepipe; Religion Moderator

Sir;

I have made two polite requests that we cease contact. I will ask once again that you do not contact me.

Thank you.

Mark


4,659 posted on 08/27/2007 6:42:28 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: HarleyD

I apologize if I am unable to keep things straight amongst those that I debate.

It is my failing and not yours.


4,660 posted on 08/27/2007 6:43:52 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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