Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
As far as I am concerned, God is able to do with his creation as he wishes, and none of us has the right to complain about it.
If that involves killing babies, old people, middle aged hippies, insolvent bankers, or whatever, that is his right. He created us, he has the right to do with us as he wishes. And whatever he decides to do is righteous and just and perfect in him.
***Wrong. Protestants in general obey Papal teaching which they accept as correct, not because the Pope teaches it but because it is correct.
It is more accurate to say Protestants don’t obey Papal teaching simply because the Pope “said so”.***
I would say that we Protestants hold to the teachings of the Pope as long as scripture doesn’t disagree. When scripture disagrees with the Pope, guess who I am believing in?
Thanks for your reply. I understand God can do what He wishes. I don’t see this as a debate about that, but rather about loving God.
I also believe that no man can love God without His express allowance to do so. No man has the ability to love God until he is born again. Up to that point, no man seeks God, no man desires God, no man can please God.
Where we start to differ is we believe God allows all men to love Him. Or perhaps more accurately to return His love or be in communion through love.
I’ll have to go with Paul on this one. Romans 3:9-18.
We can prove either way using scripture.
Well, somebody has to be wrong! :>)
I suppose so. So what next?
Does all we know of God and love come from scripture?
That is a straw man, FK. Protestants will pray with anyone, whether they share their beliefs or not. That is the kind relativism that puts any absolute truth about God into question. It says that everyone knows a little bit of the truth and that the truth is not known to anyone.
I'm not sure what your comment has to do with mine. What I meant was that when we say that Holy Spirit leads us in matters of faith and interpretation, your side says "NO HE DOESN'T, He only leads the men of my Church". That is an artificial shackling of the Holy Spirit by your men because those of us who are a part of God's Church, but are outside of your portion of it, have no access to leadership by the Spirit on the most important matters. That is, according to your men. They believe they have the ability to restrict the freedom of the Spirit.
All of this was in the context of the Spirit leading a person from one Bible-believing church to another. You were arguing that such would be a personal and possibly inconsistent, faith-denying decision. You could only make that assessment by restricting the Holy Spirit from leading on such a matter.
And as for Protestants praying with anyone, as I child of God of course I will "pray with" anyone. When we go forth to all nations making disciples we "pray with" the lost all the time. Now, if you mean pray side by side then your statement couldn't be further from the truth. There are many "Protestant" doors I would never darken. Now, if I came to visit your church would you criticize me for praying side by side with you? :)
What's your view of the Westminster Confession?
There is no lucifer in the (OT) Bible. It was St. Jerome's (Vulgate) creation, using the Babylonian morning star diety as subject which only Christianity (through Apochrypha, and no doubt through Babylonian and Persian influence) taught, not Judaism.
And please don't quote Isaiah and his refreence to the Phoenician king who believed himself to be god.
Thank you.
The OT shows that this permissiveness of God goes further than that (i.e. Job), and that Satan, as all other angels is simply an obedient servant of God. There is no adversity between God of the OT and Satan.
The Christian demonology comes into play after Zoroasternism influend certain religious groups in Israel. Fall angels are mentioned in the so-called Apocryphal books, which are quoted as authoritative in the NT (i.e. Jude).
MLG to Kosta (leaving out FK): Now that is a strawman. Protestants who hold to "sola scriptura" do not
Really? Well, that's not what FK tells me. In reply #11,030 he specifically says:
This is why I can't take anything from Protestants as credible.
I agree there is a lot of symbolism in that. In our church, whenever the Pastor reads anywhere from scripture he asks us to stand, (him) saying "in honor of God's word". That is quite a difference. I'm sure it goes to our differing views on what the Bible is, where it came from, and what authority it has.
I only established that (1) it is impossible to find a Trinitarian formula in St. Paul's writings and (2) that he refers to the "spirit of God" in a Judaic manner, as grace, and not as the third Person of the Holy Trinity.
I don't see how you established these things. I see how you declared them. :) If Paul really didn't understand the personhood of Holy Spirit, then your real criticism is of Christ Himself for faulty teaching. Paul says himself that everything he teaches is not from man but from Christ directly.
Obviously, the apostolic successors did, through divine revelation, establish the dogma of the Holy Trinity from the Holy Scriptures, indirectly. So, their authority in that respect is undisputed as far as I know by mainline Protestants. It is disputed only when it runs against Protestant innovations.
I'm not sure how many Protestants recognize the authority of Apostolic successors. :) Anyone can fairly deduce the Trinity from the scriptures. IOW, I don't believe in the Trinity because anyone's Church says so, I believe it because it is supported by scriptures.
MLG to Kosta (leaving out FK —again!): Did God ask you if you wanted to be born into this world? Did God get your permission to be created? Yes or no?
Note: MLG, it is customary and considerate and polite and proper to include a person involved in your replies.
God created Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve created the rest of us by natural laws established by God.
God does not cause a rapist to impregnate a raped woman any more than He forces a married couple to have children they cannot support, or a teenager to become pregnant and abandon the baby. Those are our decisions.
It seems to me you are suggesting that God is behind all the evil we commit.
The Church does not teach that we are reponsible for our own salvation. Only God saves us. We are responsible for our wickedness and perdition.
MLG: Thus you are the ultimate cause of salvation
Nope. God makes the offer. WE must either accept or reject His grace. You do admit that we can reject His grace, right? We can choose to stay wicked, right?
God gives us a choice. Come to Him and be saved, or reject Him and perish. Your formula is a partial God (the bible make sit very clear that God is impartial) who leaves us no choice. Believe what you want. The choices you make in life carry consequnces and the responsibility for those consequences are entirely yours. That inlcudes giving ourselves to God.
You are confusing Protestant religious parties (i.e. "churches") with the true Church of Christ. There was no compromise. That's why there were so many who left the Church in heresy.
Dear Kosta, thanks for your response in post #10954.I have been very busy and doing some catch up
I wish you a Blessed Evening
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