Really? I had no idea.
Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
:::Man is most ungrateful, if...he do not acknowledge divine grace.:::
Harley, you’ve got to follow the sentence through.
The sentence states that man is most ungrateful IF he does not acknowledge divine grace. That says that man has a choice, which is nothing that Calvin ever claimed.
Ted Kennedy does not have a gigantic Crystal Cathedral, with worldwide television coverage on Sundays, bringing in all kinds of celebrities, and preaching theology.
Dr. Schuller and his son do. I don’t recall Kennedy ever preaching what it is to be a Catholic or a Christian of any kind, so I’m not sure that the comparison is entirely valid.
The Ο Λογος in "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." Some people think that the Word spoken of here means the literal words of God. Its John 1:1, FK.
I think that the subject of hell and eternal damnation is preached upon in much greater frequency by the Catholics than you may think.
We believe that hell is the reward for those who reject God and therefore it is of great interest to us. If hell is not the result of man’s choice, then certainly it is going to be de emphasized in theological circles.
Really? I had no idea.
Dear Harley,That’s absurd! You never cease to amaze me with the things you write.
Augustine would NEVER elevate his views on predestination in order to give up or attack the Sacraments and teaching authority of the Church.
Let me show you just how Catholic Blessed Augustine was....
Augustine on Confession
“All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and CONFESS YOUR SINS TO THE PRIEST. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven.” Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).
Saint Augustine’s prayer to the Blessed Mother
Prayer to Our Lady of Mercy - St. Augustine of Hippo
Blessed Virgin Mary,
who can worthily repay you with praise
and thanks for having rescued a fallen world
by your generous consent!
Receive our gratitude,
and by your prayers obtain the pardon of our sins.
Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven
and enable them to make our peace with God.
Holy Mary, help the miserable,
strengthen the discouraged,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for your people,
plead for the clergy,
intercede for all women consecrated to God.
May all who venerate you
feel now your help and protection.
Be ready to help us when we pray,
and bring back to us the answers to our prayers.
Make it your continual concern
to pray for the people of God,
for you were blessed by God
and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world,
who lives and reigns forever.
Saint Augustine on Transubstantiation of Eucharist
“You ought to know what you have received, what you are going to receive, and what you ought to receive daily. That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS the Body of Christ. The chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS the Blood of Christ.”
-”Sermons”, [227, 21]
Saint Augustine on infant Baptism
“And if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants, from the parallel of circumcision, which was received by God’s earlier people, and before receiving which Abraham was justified, as Cornelius also was enriched with the gift of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.” Augustine, On Baptism against the Donatist, 4:24:31 (A.D. 400).
Saint Augustine on Peter’s Successors Claim Authority over the Church
“I am held in the communion of the Catholic Church by...and by the succession of bishops from the very seat of Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection commended His sheep to be fed up to the present episcopate.” Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani, 5 (A.D. 395).
Ecumenism cannot go forward if the Protestants believe that satan is God’s agent and that all he does is sanctioned and directed and preordained by God.
Lord help us all. The Protestants believe that satan does God’s will. That is absolutely incredible. I fear for their souls; no wonder that Calvin was able to construct his abominable theology. It certainly does fit.
By your argument Augustine was restored as a "Church Father" (another fictional/nonexistant list) because he "recanted and rejected his heresies".
Honorius was convicted of the heresy of teaching Monothelitism, a matter of faith and morals. The pope is speaking "infallibly" when speaking on a matter of faith and morals. Was Honorius speaking infallibly on a mater which he never recanted or was he not a Pope?
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":
My question has nothing whatsoever to do with the belief of an individual that he is saved; rather, the individual saved by God once.
Not quite correct. Actually Calvinists believe in the will of man. That will is held hostage, unable to acknowledge God. God must set that person free.
As Ireaneus points out, and one that I would agree with, man is certainly most ungrateful if he cannot acknowledge what God has done. That being said, I would also add that it is impossible for man NOT to acknowledge what God has done for them.
Do you think a saved individual cannot acknowledge God's gift? Do you think an unsaved individual can acknowledge God's gift?
Oh, I missed this. Please note the Catechism below:
All people are sinners and therefore bound for hell. Just by the very term that means we are already predestined to go to hell. God saves us from our fate.
1 Timothy 2:
[5] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Please explain what Irenaeus meant by this:
"...there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son , and those who possess the adoption."
Irenaeus
In those things which are clearly laid down in Scripture, all those things are found which pertain to faith and morals. (De Doct. Chr. 2:9)
Whatever you hear from them [the Scriptures], let that be well received by you. Whatever is without them refuse, lest you wander in a cloud. (De Pastore, 11)
All those things which in times past our ancestors have mentioned to be done toward mankind and have delivered unto us: all those things also which we see and deliver to our posterity, so far as they pertain to the seeking and maintaining true religion, the Holy Scripture has not passed over in silence. (Ep. 42)
Whatever our Saviour would have us read of his actions and sayings he commanded his apostles and disciples, as his hands, to write. (De Consensu Evang. 1:ult.)
Let them [the Donatists] demonstrate their church if they can, not by the talk and rumor of the Africans; not by the councils of their own bishops; not by the books of their disputers; not by deceitful miracles, against which we are cautioned by the word of God, but in the prescript of the law, in the predictions of the prophets, in the verses of the Psalms, in the voice of the Shepherd himself, in the preaching and works of the evangelists; that is, in all canonical authorities of the sacred Scriptures. (De Unit. Eccl. 16)
I’m afraid that you’re probably correct. We may just have to agree to disagree about the whole thing.
We believe that the Church never strayed since none of his infallable statements involved changing Church teaching regarding his heresy. That’s probably about as far as I can go without some more research.
:::1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”: :::
There you go!!!! We finally agree on something.
In fact, I have never seen an official list of these "Fathers". Have you?
If Augustine had been born in the 14th-15th century he might well have been branded a heretic and suffered the same fate as Jan Hus.
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