Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
“If I do end up in hell, it will be because God wanted it. But it will be my fault.”
Interesting theology.
I think that you have posted before that you believe that you are of the elect and therefore will have everlasting life in heaven. Do you think believe in this theology because you believe that you are going to heaven and therefore going to hell is not an option for you?
Tertullian became a heretic over time. He gradually drifted from orthodoxy.
It’s not that he was ‘good’ only a portion of the time; for a long while he was within the Church and its teachings.
:::Hell is seldom preached in Protestant or Catholic quarters anymore. The closer a church is towards synergism, the less they believe in hell. FK statistics bear that out; more people believe in a God of love than hell. You hear this in many of the “God is love” crowd; “God wouldn’t punish those who never heard of Him.” Hell is done away with. We don’t like to talk about it or think about it because it doesn’t fit with the “God of Love” synergistic view.:::
The Catholic quarter that I hang out in very clearly spells out what hell is and how we can get there; and fairly frequently. It must be a different quarter than the one that you are referring to.
The Fatima Prayer (toward the conclusion of each Rosary):
O my Jesus;
Forgive us our sins,
save us from the fires of Hell,
and lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those most in need of thy mercy.
Amen.
Your pope Mike as an example of Catholicism? Nice job.
Why not label Fred Phelps as a good Baptist, if you’re going there?
So the Reformed need messengers to take their prayers to God? I thought that the Reformed sent their mechanically performed prayers directly to God through Jesus. I don’t see anything about that in Reformed doctrine anywhere - the direct method appears to be the preferred one. Is there a Catechism or other Reformed document that deals with this?
Rome’s fatal mistake? Only one? I guess that we haven’t been trying hard enough. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church began with Jesus Christ and His instructions. We didn’t begin with a man or men. We began with the Messiah. It’s ironic that you call Catholic doctrine ‘twisting’ when every Protestant individual or group of individuals believes that they have licence to cherry pick individual unrelated verses, string them together, create ludicrous, ridiculous and often dangerous doctrine, hang out a shingle and tithe the rubes.
You speak as one of the self identified elect, who don’t have to worry about a thing. Isn’t it nice?
:::Our Mediator is Christ, who we trust exclusively to have done everything neccessary for our Redemption upon the Cross to which we can add not one single thing, and Who clothes us in His Righteousness, as a Delightfully Robed Bride perfectly acceptable to the Father, not on account of any single thing we have done, but because of what Christ did on our behalf as our Kinsman Redeemer.:::
When are you going to demonstrate your water walking abilities?
:::MB: I suspect that that indwelling heartburn will turn out to be just that.
MLG: Au contraire, when Christ asks you: “Why should I allow YOU into My heaven?”, and you say, “I trusted the pope, I did good works, I finshed the work you began on the Cross, I ate your real, actual flesh and drank your real, actual blood...”, it will be sad indeed when you hear the words, “Wrong answer, away with you worker of iniquity, I never knew you.”:::
Amazing. I can only find it amazing that after the excellent instruction that you have received by better Catholics than I on these boards that you would write these words that are so completely wrong. Are you in advertising, by the way?
:::I do understand Roman Catholicism, which is precisely why I know it is apostate.:::
You must be in advertising. I am unable to fathom any real understanding of the Church based, of course, what I have read of your posts. You admit that you do not do much of what Jesus has instructed us to do; you seem proud of it. Yet you would have God Judge you to have everlasting life in Heaven. That is quite a theology to which you subscribe.
No he was not an antichrist. The Church is clear.
You are not supplying many examples of clear understanding of the Church, I’m afraid.
Try the Westminster Confession of Faith which calls the Pope the antichrist.
There are a few other post Reformation position papers which explicitly instruct.
:::We can escape now. While we can, let us lift ourselves from the fall: let us never despair of ourselves, if only we depart from evil. -St. Basil-To a Fallen Virgin
Sounds to me like St. Basil believed in hell.:::
Sounds to me that St. Basil believe that men can escape hell, too - by reaching out for God’s Grace. St. Basil is saying that it is men’s choice to depart from evil. I don’t think that this reads very well as Calvinist support.
:::No one has implied that God pre-ordained wickedness or sin. Quite the contrary, Lucifer’s and Adam’s sin did not take God by surprise, since God knew full well that both would rebel against Him, and in His knowledge of all things, determined to Redeem the Elect of humanity as an inheritance for the Son, as the supreme expression of the Love between the Father and Son, to be witnessed by man and angels alike.:::
Sounds like double talk. Under Reformed theology, nothing is done without Divine preordaining. So preordaining Adam to original sin in order to deprave humanity into wickedness and sin, with its consequences of everlasting hell means that God has preordained wickedness and sin.
Jesus only set up one Church.
You can follow whichever men or theology that you prefer, but we prefer Jesus.
:::And, as Marting Luther said of the devil, “Satan is God’s Satan”, meaning that Satan does nothing and can do nothing without God’s prior approval:::
Are you saying that satan is God’s agent? Are you saying that satan’s tempting and evil in the world is God’s doing?
:::Explain then how God is just in commanding the infanticide of innocent babies.
That’s a problem Calvinism has to answer. I think it goes with how God is just in creating innocent babies born reprobate - doomed as well.:::
I think that it is a logical extension of the self-determined elitism movement. If I am of the elite, so the logic might run, and the majority of people aren’t, and babies cannot be baptized because they are, well, babies, then dead babies go right to everlasting hellfire because God is just.
Catholics do not know the election status of babies. We believe that the Church can eventually know the status of saints.
And Peter had hope that he would attain everlasting life, not certainty. Faith, hope and charity. Not certainty.
:::You mistake the difference between “Reformers” and “Protestants”. You’ll find very little difference between a Reformed Baptist and a Reformed Presbyterian. Osteen is not Reformed.:::
But Dr. Schuller and his ordained son are.
None of the Reformed here on FR sound like they do.
I agree that not all of us are the some of us that the some of us are.
Yet we are exhorted throughout the Gospels to do. And we are informed that some will fall away who were previously believers. The only way to lose faith is to spurn that in which you have have previously had faith.
He was a true Pope, who wandered off into heresy.
Just as Augustine was a true Church Father who also wandered off into heresy. Origen might have been recognized as such if he had rejected and recanted his heresies. Augustine did and rightfully takes his place as a giant of the Church.
“”Hell is seldom preached in Protestant or Catholic quarters anymore.””
Harley, It is taught in the Catechism. We learn about it a very young age. We don’t have to have it constantly pounded into our heads when we are supposed to be spending our time loving one another
From the Catechism...
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM
IV. Hell
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.”610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,”613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”614
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”616
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where “men will weep and gnash their teeth.”617
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619
Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.620
This one is worth repeating...
“”1037 GOD PREDESTINES NO ONE TO GO TO HELL;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.””
That means NO ONE
:::All are born reprobate then? And then some elected?
I thought Calvinism taught the elect/reprobate were thus from birth?:::
Interesting point. I was under the same impression, as well.
God is all powerful, yet unable to save the lost;
Why would you think God, or anyone, who chooses not to do something is therefore unable to do it? Non sequitor.
Forced love is not love.
God is all knowing yet saves someone not knowing if that person will fall away,
Again, a confusion of foreknowing combined with the fallacy of OSAS.
God is all present except for the time that Adam took the fruit from Eve.
Huh?
There are a few other post Reformation position papers which explicitly instruct.
You make my point explicitly!
Every denomination at some point has had leader(s) who have done or said something that we NOW would not consider kosher, so to speak.
And the original poster was trying to heap all the sins of the past LDS squarely on Romney's shoulders, as if Romney is out there daily praising every single thing every Mormon ever said or did.
Consider: some segments of Catholic/Protestant Ireland even TODAY don't consider each other to be true Christians. Something we Americans find deplorable, I believe.
Billy Graham, who is considered an icon of Christain evangelism, at one time railed against Catholics as somehow betraying the New Testament.
Graham, and almost all evangelicals, have modified their attitudes toward other denominations -- and I believe Freepers should do the same for Romney.
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