New Believer Jailed in Mexico for Receiving Christ

Crosswalk.com ^ | April (17th?) 2007 | Jeff Sellers

[armydoc]

But I am not condoning a hotheaded reaction, merely pointing out that one does not slander a whole village of people as idolaters, then runs under a skirt of some missionaries to complain.

I feel sorry for the poor fellow but his and his teachers’ rhetoric is offensive. If anyone accused me of idolatry and of “not letting the gospel in”, I’d punch him too.

OK, got it. You would have a "hotheaded", violent reaction which you would not condone.

[annalex]

Something like that, yes.

[P-Marlowe]

You are purposely misinterpreting the meaning.

Is the wafer God?

I say no. Unequivocally no.

What do you say?

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.

[highlander_UW]

Let's try to remember that Catholic martyrs were made in Mexico. What we got there is a messed up state.

Undoubtedly, and no argument from me about the state being messed up. That is, in fact, part of my point. Instead of being outraged that someone who wasn't guilty of anything was thrown in jail some are rushing to defend catholicism. Well, if they really want to identify catholicism with what is going on there then that is more telling than the article.

I can't comment on the other RC posters on this thread. Clearly the story is of an outrage.

You sound like a reasonable person with the sort of response one would expect from a rational viewpoint.

Just as clearly there are plenty of people on this thread who are using this occasion for an attack on the RC Church. I don't think the rush is all that blind.

Well, it took all the way to post 2 for a catholic apologist sort to chime in...that would seem pretty quick given there weren't any anti-catholic posts prior to it. I would say that's rushing. That's not to say there weren't subsequent anti-catholic posts after that point. I haven't read all the posts, but the first ones I saw did address what one would expect (and hope) that a catholic would agree is not catholicism.

I've only posted in a handful of religion threads on this board over the several years I've been here because very few seem to be willing to actually think (and by that I mean people of all religious viewpoints)...so it never seems like good stewardship of one's time to become embroiled in endless arguments.

[tiki]

First see my posts 71, 74 and 89. Let me just put my 2 cents in here. Read the article again, does it really resemble a news story to you. You see in the first few paragraphs that whoever wrote it has a "Jack Chick" understanding of Catholicism. It sounds so tabloidish as to be ludicrous.

"The political bosses" , no names, "they", no names, "other catechists", no names, "the officials" no names and no means of knowing what they are officials of.... The "victim" and the pastor are named so the names aren't left out to protect. Isn't it kind of usual in a news story to publish more than one viewpoint of a story? Wouldn't some Fr. Whatshisname get interviewed so that he could rail against the new believer?

Then we get, "‘What do you mean that you’ve accepted Christ – you mean you don’t believe in our gods [Catholic saints] ?’” This was written to inflame and cause ill will. I would bet a hundred bucks that the real story (if this isn't completely made up out of whole cloth) is a whole lot different than the reality.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen, Q.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." -- Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

[.30Carbine]

Bumping you, Brother. Thanks for thinking of me in the ping line!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"Wherefore if forgers or money and other evil-doers are forewith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated, but even put to death." (Aquinas)

LOL. And they say Calvin was short-tempered. 8~)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If you pray to a wafer of bread can the wafer of bread answer your prayers?

"And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?

He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:19-20

[Quix]

Sorry.

Neglected to pay enough attention to “you” slipping in.

WILCO.

[Mad Dawg]

I could be wrong, often am, but I don’t think either Quix or I is making it personal. He makes an argument, which I consider bogus, so I make it back to him. That’s not personal, that’s debate. I like Quix.

[Mad Dawg]

I think that maybe your (probably wise) abstention from these threads may suggest that you misunderstood the intent of the poster you mention. Look at what's happening here. We RCs are being told that we do in fact encourage polytheism and idolatry and the doctrine of the Eucharist is being attacked, with little interest in what that doctrine actually is. And this is entirely normal.

So the poster was just, IMHO, wryly -- and accurately predicting what would happen to this story and this thread.

[Dr._Joseph_Warren]

>>You are purposely misinterpreting the meaning.

Is the wafer God?

I say no. Unequivocally no.

What do you say?

Again, I am not Catholic, so I am not the one to speak for them.

But I know enough Catholics to know that they don't think the wafer is God in the way you are suggesting. The 'wafer' is not going to answer their prayers.

[Mad Dawg]

It wouldn't surprise me if you were entirely on the money.

What you don't get, though, (HEAVY, LEADEN SARCASM ALERT) is that Roman Catholicism is so intrinsically bad that no mockery or insult is too coarse or gratuitous, no reporting is too shoddy or Dan-Rather-like to apply in the war which must always be fought against us. Understanding what we think is not only necessary it is positively discouraged because it wastes time which might be more profitably be used in condemnation.

So the fact that this article was written as though by a deranged high school student going for his religious bigotry merit badge affects in no way whatsoever it's usefulness in providing a pretext for an attack on whatever Catholic doctrine or practice comes to mind.

If the Tiber rises as high as the city walls, if the Nile does not send its waters up over the fields, if the heavens give no rain, if there is an earthquake, if there is famine or pestilence, straightway the cry is, "Away with the, uh, Catholics -- to the lion!" What! So many to one poor lion? [apologies to Tertullian]

[P-Marlowe]

The 'wafer' is not going to answer their prayers.

Then the wafer is not God.

[Religion Moderator]

You are both kind hearted, valued posters - and I did not see anything there beyond "needling" between friends, but I also wanted to issue the usual warning to keep the discussion on the issues.

Because some tend to draw verbal swords in defense of another poster, flaming can be an unintended consequence.

[highlander_UW]

I think that maybe your (probably wise) abstention from these threads may suggest that you misunderstood the intent of the poster you mention.

Perhaps I did. Misunderstanding is one of the primary currencies on the Internet. Intent and tone are frequently lost. I know I've been misunderstood on more occasions than I could count.

Look at what's happening here. We RCs are being told that we do in fact encourage polytheism and idolatry and the doctrine of the Eucharist is being attacked, with little interest in what that doctrine actually is. And this is entirely normal.

As I'd mentioned, I haven't read all the posts in this thread (in fact a small minority at this point), I'll take your word for it that RC's are accused of those things. Although, it's possible that further misunderstandings may be transpiring as I believe the article suggested that polytheism and idolatry are part of the sychrotism being employed in this particular part of Mexico. I don't believe it is encouraged by Rome, but it is a fact that in some areas the concept of praying to saints can and has led to polytheism and the practice of having statues can and has led to idolatry...that is a perversion of catholicism, not the clean practice, but sadly it is done in some parts of the world. It appears as if central and south America (and perhaps parts of Africa and Asia as well) seem susceptible to such practices and others (such as the self flagellation in Asia, for instance). It does seem to occur more frequently in RC churches, but that may be attributable to the RC being in some areas much longer that protestant churches giving more time for such practices to arise (in particular Central and South America where the RC has been much longer that protestants in general).

So the poster was just, IMHO, wryly -- and accurately predicting what would happen to this story and this thread.

That 2nd post was pretty cynical (perhaps warranted, I have seen a few threads and the direction they go), although one wonders what direction things might have gone if instead the poster had said something along the lines that it's a bad thing that shouldn't have happened to the person in the article and denounced the synchrotism as an ill that should be addressed.

[tiki]

I think I've learned to give these attacks to God, especially when I realize that the attacks are a sign the the Catholic Church IS the true Church. I don't deal well with the anti-Catholics and so try not to address them. I begin to have extreme feelings of ill-will against them. I read only Catholic replies unless I must read the anti post to make sense of the Catholic's post.

I just had to say something about this article because my 10 yr old grandson could have done a better job. The agenda was obvious from the first sentence and then others wonder why Catholics saw it that way.