Catholic Church & Jesus Christ-Why No One Should Be A Catholic

Apostolic Messianic Fellowship ^ | August 30, 2005 | Why No One Should Be A Catholic

[the808bass]

This is why "sola scriptura" cannot suffice.

Except for the fact (believe it or not) that Protestants believe that Matthew is Scripture. So we're ok there.

[AlaninSA]

Are Relics Biblical?

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Question: I've heard that some Catholics treat relics of the saints with respect. Is this Biblical?

Absolutely. In fact, the Bible records that a number of miraculous healings occurred when people came into contact with the relics of the holy men and women of God. For example, the Bible tells us that a dead man was restored to life when his body accidentally came into contact with the bones of Elisha:

"So it was, as they were burying a man, that suddenly they spied a band of raiders, and they put the man in the tomb of Elisha; and when the man was let down and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet" (2 Kings 13:21).

Such miraculous cures in association with the relics of the saints continued even into the age of the New Testament Church. We are familiar with the instances in which a woman was cured when she touched the garment of Jesus (Mat. 9:20-22), and of the multitude of sick people who waited in the streets, hopeful that at least the shadow of Peter might fall on them as he passed (Acts 5:15). But the Catholic respect for the relics of the saints is prefigured in the fact that God chose to work great deeds through even the relics of St. Paul:

"Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

Catholics take great comfort, as should all Christians, that God has not ceased to work great deeds and unusual miracles through the relics of His saints. Lourdes and countless other shrines stand witness to the continued working of miracles among the people of God.

[AlaninSA]

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Is it Biblical to Call a Priest "Father"?

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Question: Surely Catholics contradict the Bible when the call their priest "Father"?

It is 100% Biblical to call a priest "father".

To understand this, we first have to recognize that there is no real Biblical taboo on the word "father." In Mat. 15:4-6, we find Jesus talking in a very normative manner about earthly fathers: He gives an injunction to honor them, but never a mention of any prohibition of the name "father." So too, throughout Romans 4, Paul calls Abraham "our father". In Eph. 6, he talks about relations between fathers and sons, and is seemingly oblivious to the idea that it is naughty to call anyone on earth "father". Finally, the author of Hebrews speaks reverentially of our "fathers of our flesh" (Heb. 12:9).

Moreover, even in New Testament times, the word "father" was regularly used as an endearing honorary title for Church officials. Paul confirms that God is our adoptive Father (Ro. 8:15; Ga. 4:6), but also calls himself the father of his flock of the faithful (e.g., 1 Co. 4:15-17, Gal. 4:19, 1 Thes. 2:7, 11, and 2 Cor. 6:13,). For Paul, then, an apostle such as he was truly a spiritual father to his congregations.

The honorary title of "father" was also applied to the elders in the Church. Paul, for example, instructs Bishop Timothy to exhort the elders (presbyters) as fathers (1 Tim. 5:1). If you recall that the Catholic priest is a descendent of the New Testament office of elder, or presbyter, then this is text stands as full Biblical mandate for our use of the term "father" in a Church setting.

But there is one more text that is worth considering for a further, and I think telling, insight. John, in his first Epistle, directly addresses the elders of the Church as "fathers" (1 John 2:13-14), just as Paul instructed Timothy to do. But recall that John was himself one of the 12 apostles, who heard the discourse in Matt. 23:9, and yet here he refers to elders in the Church as "fathers".

This preponderance of Scriptural evidence suggests that fundamentalists may be reading way too much into Matt. 23:9. Paul, John and Timothy all used the title "father" to refer to presbyters. If it's good enough for the apostles, then it's good enough for me.

[AnAmericanMother]

Oral tradition is exactly what I'm talking about. That's what Sharpe, Niles, and Chase collected. Their work is well known to anybody in the field, it is not oral history.

Sorry, I took my undergraduate degree in history, and I'm VERY familiar with oral tradition work in Britain and the U.S. You were just plain caught out here, and Wikipedia (Wikipedia!) will not save you.

[AlaninSA]

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Does Romans 3:23 Teach that Mary Sinned?

Paul writes in Romans 3:23 that: "all ('pantes' in the original Greek) sinned and lack God's glory." Some Baptists wrench this verse out of context in order to claim that Mary was a sinner. But is this conclusion actually warranted by Paul's discussion of sin in the Letter to the Romans?

Does Paul Mean that Each and Every Person Sinned?

No. Paul's use of the word 'pantes' ("all") in Romans 3:23 hardly constitutes a statement that every single person since Adam has sinned! Indeed, common sense bears this out, for the sad fact is that many young babies have died within moments or hours of death, and have thus obviously not sinned. Paul himself explicitly admits that not every one has sinned, when he explains that as a result of Adam's disobedience "many" ('polloi'), and not "all," were made sinners (Ro. 5:19). Needless to say, Baptists never cite this passage when discussing the issue of the Mary and the Immaculate Conception!

But Doesn't "All" Mean Just That, "All"?

When Paul says "all", he is making a generalization about humanity's bondage to sin as opposed to a categorical statement that each and every person has sinned. This is easily demonstrated by looking at Romans 5:12-14, where we read that death came to "all" (again, 'pantas') men. But the Bible tells us that some men did not die. For example, Enoch (He. 11:5) and Elijah (2 Ki. 2:11) were both taken up to heaven without experiencing death. Clearly, then, when Paul says that death came to "all", he means that death was the normal end for man, although God might make exceptions.

As a point of grammar, when Paul says "all" ('pantes') in Romans 3:23, he means precisely the same "all" mentioned in Romans 3:22: "all those who are believing." So too, by emphasizing in Romans 3:21-23 that there is no difference in justification for those believers who were under the Law and those who were not, Paul refers us back to Romans 3:9: "Jews and Gentiles alike are all ('pantas') under sin." Paul's statement about sin in Romans 3:23 thus glosses his earlier comment on the dominion of sin over Jew and Gentile alike, and the need of both for God's grace.

Does Paul's Discussion of Sin Support the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?

Yes. While we simply cannot found the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception on the Epistle to the Romans alone, Paul nonetheless clears the way for understanding how such a doctrine can exist comfortably within his soteriology.

Paul's discussion of sin in Romans is grounded upon the concept of original sin. Sin, he tells us, entered the world through one man (Ro. 5:12) and thence reigned over humankind until the Resurrection of Christ (Ro. 6:17-23). Nonetheless, this condition of original sin was not always universally imputed to men; e.g., prior to the Law (cf. Ro. 5:13). So too, even after the advent of the Law, the Lord graciously declined to impute sin to some people, even apart from their works (Ro. 4:6). To this end, Paul approvingly cites the Psalmist: "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputes no sin" (Ro. 4:8). And what is the Virgin Mary, if not especially blessed by God (Lk .1:48)?

So too, Paul teaches that the gift of the abundance of God's grace frees us from the stain of original sin (Ro. 5:15-17). What was the Blessed Mother, if not completely filled with grace (Lk. 1:28)? Again, Paul teaches that those who are not slaves ('douloi') to sin are instead slaves of God. And once again, what is Mary, if not the "slave" ('doule') of the Lord (Lk. 1:38)?

In the Epistle to the Romans, Paul never articulates any doctrinal point that rules out or excludes Mary's sinless life. Indeed, in explaining the radical freedom from sin that Christians enjoy, the Apostle actually touches in a broad-brushed way upon the very characteristics that lie at the heart of Mary's unique exemption from the stain of Original Sin: her blessedness, her fullness of God's grace, and her status as a special servant of the Lord. It is with the greatest of ease that we can imagine St. Paul heartily assenting to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

[Frank Sheed]

Oh wait. Of course Matthew is Scripture and he quotes that the Messiah will be a Nazarene. Where is THAT found in the Old Testament prophets? It isn't. And neither is the interpretation given by Matthew for the other verse I quoted (Matthew 23: 1-3) found in the Old Testament.

Please go here: http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/07/books-by-dave-armstrong-catholic_31.html

You say that we Catholics use "extra-biblical" material. It turns out that Oral Tradition was well established and appeared in the Gospel of Matthew and in other locations. You must rely on Tradition or you cannot explain Scripture.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

What goes around comes around I guess.
You should have read some of the Charges leveled
again Jews by the early Church. (Whom Catholics claim to be)

[AlaninSA]

An Invitation to Come Home and Links

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Is it Time for You to Come Home?

Salvation is both the simplest thing in the world, and yet the most wondrous and seemingly impossible. Salvation is the Good News that God, Whom we can only know as Love (1 Jo. 4:8), loves you so much that He became a human and died for you that you might live now and forever in His Love. The Good News is that Jesus Christ, in Whom we can see and know the Love of God, because He is God, is not only alive but is present to you even today. The God Who is Love offers His amazing gift of Love, and His salvation and wellbeing through Jesus Christ, to everyone … to include YOU.

Our Lord Jesus Himself describes His offer of salvation as an invitation to His wedding feast (Mat. 22:1-14), where the banner He shall place over you is Love (Ca. 2:4). Why not say "yes" to God? Why not let yourself fall in love with the God Who loves you? There is no magic "sinner's prayer" to recite. And you certainly don't need to pass a sectarian theology test to be saved! Just let God love you, and let God's love fill you, and let God's love radiate out from you to the people around you.

Once the fire of God's love has scorched your heart, there is really no turning back. You will know what it means to be "born again", or "born from above". You will know what it means to have the Holy Spirit of God sweep through your entire being like a heavenly flame. You will know what it means to cast off the heavy burden of sin and unworthiness like a foul-smelling winter coat on a glorious Spring day.

Once you are in love with the God who is Love, you will gladly answer His call to holiness. But it's not always easy to live as a witness to the Love of God: even Christ Jesus Himself saw fit to experience death as a testimony of God's love for you. The first thing that you will have to understand is that you really can't do it alone, for Jesus Christ calls us to be a Church. We are called to be the People of God. We are called to be united in love and peace. We are called to be the very Body of Christ, living, loving, and suffering together that God's love may be complete in us.

Let there be no doubt about it: you can know God's love and walk in God's love in a Baptist church. To put it more simply, you can be saved in a Baptist church. If you are truly living the Christian life in your Baptist church, then you should probably stay there.

But you should also at least consider these questions, particularly if you are not really fully aware of God's immense love for you, or if you are a former Catholic:

	Why not unite yourself with the Church that that was founded by Jesus Christ Himself and the Apostles nearly 2,000 years ago … the Catholic Church?
	Why not learn to walk in the holiness of the Christian life from the Church whose doctrines and teachings are fully (and without exegetical gymnastics) in accord with the Bible … the Catholic Church?
	Why not study the Bible with the pastors and teachers of the very Church which, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, compiled and canonized the Bible … the Catholic Church?
	Why not experience the indescribably beautiful Real Presence of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the Eucharist … in the Catholic Church?
	Why not know the true comfort of genuine Security in the God-ordained sacrament of Reconciliation … in the Catholic Church?
	If you are a parent of young children, why not accept God's offer of love and salvation in Jesus Christ which is for you and your children (Acts 2:39) by baptizing them into the Christian faith … in the Catholic Church?
	Why let the misgivings and prejudices of your forebears continue to blind you to the Good News of God's love and salvation which the Catholic Church has proclaimed since the Day of Pentecost?

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Links to Pertinent Catholic Resources:

If you are like most Baptists, you have probably heard a great many mistruths and even outright lies about the Catholic Church and Catholic doctrines. You have probably never had a chance to learn why Catholics believe as we do. You have probably never been shown the overwhelming Scriptural and historical evidence for the truth of Catholic teaching. The following links will give you a chance to begin assessing Catholicism in the light of an honest reading of Scripture, and an unbiased view of history. Good luck in your hunt!

Great Catholic Links Sites:

Peter's Net: http://www.trincomm.org/

Totally Catholic Link Directory: http://www.tcld.net/

The Bread of Life Catholic Webring: http://www.icdc.com/~vickery/breadoflife.htm

Apologetics Resources:

Aedificatio: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7273/

All Roads Lead to Rome: A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church:

http://www.geocities.com/confiteor_deo/convert.html

Answers for Troubled Times: http://www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/answers/

Apologia: A Catholic Page for Protestants and Eastern Orthodox: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/8410/

At the Gate of Bliss: Catholic Converts Information: http://home.att.net/~wklimon/Converts.htm

Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: http://ic.net/~erasmus/

Catholicism According to the Early Church Fathers: http://www.geocities.com/kathers_60/Early_Church_F/Contentsx.html

Catholic Answers: http://www.catholic.com/

Catholic Apologetics: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/

Catholic Apologetics on the Internet: http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/apolo.html

Catholic and Christian Crossroads: http://www.catholichost.com/ccc/

Catholic Faith and Reason: http://www.catholicfaithandreason.org/

Catholic Home Study Service: http://www.amm.org/chss.htm

Catholic Information League: http://www.angelfire.com/mi/CIL/

A Catholic Response: http://users.binary.net/polycarp/

Catholic Society of Evangelists: http://www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/cse/

Catholic Source: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Woods/2495/Default.htm

Catholic Truth Society Pamphlets: http://cts.bvm.com.au/

Catholics: What Do they Believe? http://www.anawim.pair.com/CATHOLICS/

Corunum Apologetic Web Site: http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm

Defenders of the Catholic Faith: http://www.catholic-convert.com/main.html

Defending the Bride: http://members.aol.com/johnprh/

In Defense of the Roman Catholic Church: http://www.catholic-defense.com/

Don't Be Fooled by Jack Chick Tracts: http://net2.netacc.net/~mafg/jtchick/jtc02.html

Faith Seeking Understanding: http://www.geocities.com/faithseeking/

Frank's Pillar of Truth: http://members.tripod.com/roamincat/index.html

Gehenna: http://members.tripod.com/~frjoe/

Gospel Truth: http://home.flash.net/~truth/

The Great Converts: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/1909/

I Converted … Now What? http://hometown.aol.com/priestvoca/Home.html

John 6:54: http://www.john654.org/

Joint Declaration on Justification: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Keeping Catholics Catholic: http://members.aol.com/KCC1TIM/index.html

Lumen Verum Apologetics: http://www.lumenverum.com/

Matt's Catholic Apologetics: http://home.netcom.com/~matt1618/

Matt's Catholic Site: http://www.mattscatholicsite.com/

Nazareth Resource Library: http://www.cin.org/users/james/

One Faith - Una Fides: http://net2.netacc.net/~mafg/

A Protestant's Guide to the Catholic Church: http://www.protcath.com/

Returning Home: Seeking those Who Left the Catholic Church: http://www.catholicity.com/cathedral/returninghome/

Sacred Heart Catholic Essays: http://www.catholic.butlerlinks.com/

To Tell You The Whole Truth about the Church and the Holy Bible: http://www.scborromeo.org/truth/truth.htm

The Work of God: http://www.theworkofgod.org/

Documentary Sources:

All Catholic Church Ecumenical Councils: http://www.piar.hu/councils/~index.htm

Anti-Catholicism on the Net: http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~dcruzuri/anti-catholic/anti-catholic.html

Interesting Catholic Perspectives:

Gazing Upon Ever-Lasting Day: The Catholic Vision of J.R.R. Tolkien: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Column/7573/

[the808bass]

I likes me some....

[Scotswife]

"And Satan knows it much, much better than Scott Hahn, no doubt."


Again...somebody who doesn't have a clue who Scott Hahn is or read his extensive writings on scripture.
Not very hard to spot.

[Frank Sheed]

Got to hit early Mass. Thanks for the marvelous links! I am bookmarking this thread. Godspeed, friend.

F

[the808bass]

You must rely on Tradition or you cannot explain Scripture.

Wrap your head up with some duct tape for your own sake. Sola Scriptura does not exclude tradition as an invalid explanation for Scriptural Interpretation.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

There won't be any fireworks over an article this stupid.

he says before 400 more messages are posted.

[AlaninSA]

Click on the link above - that is the wonderful site from which I was able to collect this information.

[the808bass]

Sorry, I took my undergraduate degree in history, and I'm VERY familiar with oral tradition work in Britain and the U.S. You were just plain caught out here, and Wikipedia (Wikipedia!) will not save you.

Then you'll be the first to agree that Oral Tradition is not what Catholic Tradition is. And denigrate Wikipedia all you like. It can be right.

[the808bass]

he says before 400 more messages are posted.

I chuckled when I read that post.

How are ya, I-squared?

[AnAmericanMother]

But so many of them run down rabbit trails - such as goats, children and Catholic moms, oral tradition, etc.

Most of the fireworks have been peripheral and not related to the original post . . . which was really awfully lame. I thought it was a joke at first . . .

[Frank Sheed]

Sola Scriptura does not exclude tradition as an invalid explanation for Scriptural Interpretation.

Freudian slip?

[kstewskis]

No one can be a true Christian and a Catholic at the same time. Darn... and to think I went to Mass this morning, and received the Eucharist all for nothing! /Sarcasm off/

Isn't it amazing that other "Christians" love to attack the Catholics as unworthy, but never see the plank in their own eye.

will these people ever give it up?

I find them highly...illogical!

[the808bass]

Freudian slip?

Yawn