The Doctrine of Purgatory

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm ^ | Unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J

[wagglebee]

Okay, let's look at various translations of Genesis 3:15:

I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel. (Douay-Rheims)

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (King James)

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." (NIV)

Now, it it obvious to me that all of these translations clearly speak of Satan and his offpring on the one hand and "the woman" and her's. Now, I presume we are in agreement that the One who will crush Satan's head is Jesus Christ, so can we also agree that "the woman" must be His Mother?

[redgolum]

Now, I presume we are in agreement that the One who will crush Satan's head is Jesus Christ, so can we also agree that "the woman" must be His Mother?

On that I agree, but there are a number of Roman Catholics who read the verse the in the way that it was Mary who crushed the serpents head, not Jesus. My comments were that that the early texts can lean either way, with as many pointing to Jesus as implying Mary.

[Running On Empty]

You are very much into the Bible as your posts indicate and you have written that you belong to an "autonomous" church.

Tell me, are you a "New Testament" believer?

Do you place more emphasis on the Synoptic Gospels in the New Testament than the other books?

Do you accept and believe the holy words in the book of Acts, the Epistles of Paul and John, Jude and Timothy?

In other words, are you a believer and student and practioner of all the books of the Bible?

[wagglebee]

From Douay-Rheims:

"She shall crush"... Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent's head.

So, I think we are in agreement that Jesus Christ is the One who does the actual crushing.

But my point is about the previous part of the verse. Clearly, there are four beings talked about: Satan and his seed, the woman (Mary) and her Seed (our Lord) -- would you agree with this?

[redgolum]

But my point is about the previous part of the verse. Clearly, there are four beings talked about: Satan and his seed, the woman (Mary) and her Seed (our Lord) -- would you agree with this?

With one caveat. Sometimes, early commentators viewed the woman strictly as Eve. In many ways, it is both since Eve as the Mother of Man had Jesus as her seed, and Mary as the Mother of the Lord had Him as her son.

[wagglebee]

Okay, then what is the emnity?

[pjr12345]

In other words, are you a believer and student and practioner of all the books of the Bible?

2 Timothy 3:16-17

6 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Operative word = "All"

[pjr12345]

Sticking my nose where it is liable to be cut off...

Genesis 3:13-16

13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” 14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: “ Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” 16 To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

Contextually, the "woman" is Eve. Contextually, he is speaking of the "Seed" of Eve. Certainly I agree that the "Seed" is the first Messianic prophecy. However, it does not follow that the "woman" is a Mary prophecy. The fact is, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has ever lived (exceptement Adam) is the "seed" of Eve.

[Alex Murphy]

If one follows the Church's teaching, the Blessed Virgin Mary was conceived in an immaculate state, thus negating any need to be born again.

It's refreshing to find a Catholic who actually admits to this. You have no idea how many times we've argued your exact point with other Catholics on FR, only to be told we've got it wrong.

[wagglebee]

I don't understand. What did they argue with? Obviously, if you adhere to Church dogma on the Immaculate Conception, the Blessed Virgin Mary would never have needed to be born again.

[wagglebee]

Okay, then WHAT is the emnity?

[pjr12345]

One other thing...

Throughout the entire passage, the woman serves as a representative for all women. The consequences of her decision - pain in childbirth, being ruled over by her husband - were extended to all women. Contextually, this same representative position of Eve should be accounted for in the entire passage. The woman referred to in verse 15 is the same woman as in the rest of the passage, serving in the same representative capacity.

Ergo, the woman must be Eve, not Mary.

[pjr12345]

Okay, then WHAT is the emnity?

Definition: a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism.

If the enmity term does not apply to all women through Eve's representation of them, then contextually it must apply to her specifically.

[wagglebee]

The woman referred to in verse 15 is the same woman as in the rest of the passage, serving in the same representative capacity.

How can this be if "her Seed" clearly does not refer to Cain or her other children?

[HarleyD]

So, now that you have my response, I will ask again, what about in Genesis, when emnity is placed between the devil and his seed and the woman and her Seed, can we agree that if the woman's Seed is Jesus Christ that the woman is Mary?

In Revelation 12, the Apostle John as the master of images, uses a woman to “exegete visually” the cosmic battle between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent (Gen. 3:15). If we look at the woman in Revelation 12 from one angle, the woman is Eve (the “mother of all the living” and the one the dragon opposed from the very beginning in Genesis 3). From another angle, the woman is Mary, the mother of our Lord, who was opposed by the forces of the dragon-devil at the birth of Jesus. Yet from another angle the woman is clearly the Church. For Revelation 12:17 says that the dragon-devil went to make war with the rest of her offspring/seed, and who are these? “Those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus”. In other words, those who are given the new birth through the Church of Jesus Christ.

What identifies the Church as a “woman-mother” here is that John’s imagery causes us to think about the woman who has “offspring” or a “seed” who are those who believe in Jesus and are part of his Church-Bride. Now we can’t take imagery too far, but one of the purposes of the Book of Revelation is giving pictures to us that are clearly explained in other portions of Scripture. You could say with the image from Revelation 12 that the woman Eve eventually gave birth to Mary (that is Mary was one of her descendants as every other person in the human race). The One whom Mary gave birth to, the Lord Jesus, was the Seed of the Woman (see Galatians 3:15-18), who then as resurrected-ascended Lord gave a woman to His people, the Church, who would have “offspring” or descendants or “seed” that were born not through regular child birth, but through the new birth of hearing and believing the gospel (John 3:3-11; Galatians 3:15-29). - From, "Our Mother, the Visible Church"

but, by the same token, you need to be aware that for those of us who do follow Church doctrine, what you say is irrelevant in regards to the Blessed Mother.

Then what is the purpose of talking about it?

[wagglebee]

Then what is the purpose of talking about it?

We were talking about two different aspects of Marian teaching.

[pjr12345]

All Adam, Eve and the Serpent would have known is that "Seed" refers to a specific, male descendant of Adam and Eve. Nothing more.

"Seed" is a term akin to "offspring". While it's true that Cain is a seed of Eve, it is equally true that you and I are.

[redgolum]

Again, depends on what commentary you see.

I have read some who view the enmity as the struggle between Jesus and Satan. Some as the state of fallen mankind struggling with God (as those who follow the devil are called the "sons of Belial"), or that the now fallen world is in a state of war with God that did not exist pre fall.

Heck read Augustine. He has a number of possible definitions of what it could be, of which more than one could be true.

[pjr12345]

Very interesting.

[Vicomte13]

"can we agree that if the woman's Seed is Jesus Christ that the woman is Mary?"

Gosh, honestly, when I read these lines from Genesis 3:15

"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

I see God telling the serpent, in the presence of Eve, that Eve and her offspring will hate the serpent and its offspring (including snakes, and most women DO have an irrational fear of snakes, this is observable), and that snakes will strike at and kill people, and people will kill snakes.
I do see that this prefigures Jesus, as the eventual offspring of the woman.
And perhaps it prefigures Mary, as the eventual offspring of Eve as well.
But I think "the woman" referred to is Eve, and her "offspring" includes all people since, including Mary and Jesus, both of whom are descendants of Eve.

I know that the Church tends to see Mary in that text, but the very next line tells me that this is a bit off.

Genesis 3:16 goes on to say:

"To the woman he said:
'I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing;
in pain shall you bring forth children.
Yet your urge will be for your husband, and he shall be your master.'"

Now, I note that this is the same "woman" that God is talking about one sentence before. I know you think this is Mary (I think God is talking about Eve), and this line confirms to me that it's Eve, not Mary, he's talking about.
Pain in childbirth?
The Church just criticized the film about Mary and Joseph because Mary is shown in great pain in childbirth, and the Church says that she, immaculately conceived, did not endure this curse of Eve.
Urge for her husband?
Mary lustful for Joseph? Doesn't work. Eve lustful for Adam works.
Joseph the master of Mary?
Perhaps. But again that is not the nature of the relationship of the parents of Jesus portrayed.

The "woman" in Genesis 3:15 is Eve, not Mary.
Mary is mentioned, as one of the eventual offspring of Eve.
Jesus is mentioned, as one of the eventual offspring of Eve.
In all the interim generations, women hated snakes and men killed them, and snakes struck at and killed people.
With Mary, Jesus was born and crushed The Snake with his heel, so there is a great type in that.
Still, the text just doesn't bear up as Mary.
A lustful Mary for Joseph, giving childbirth in pain and agony to Jesus, and having childREN (plural) doesn't work.
It's Eve.