Setting the Record Straight on Mary

Catholic Exchange ^ | December 17, 2006 | Fr. Thomas Euteneuer

[OLD REGGIE]

I clicked on OK and got nowhere. I guess it's not possible to join the Catholic Church. :-)

[trisham]

You're always welcome. Keep trying. :)

[OLD REGGIE]

The Bible assembled by Luther or the one that preceded his by about 1400 years? You know, the old one I use.

WOW! You have a very rare text. What language is it written in? Aramaic? Hebrew? Are you Jewish? How many books are there in this Bible?

[Frank Sheed]

Call any Catholic Priest!

[Frank Sheed]

This is the one... Sorry, got the number of years a bit off!

http://www.catholicevangelism.org/h-canon1.shtml

[OLD REGGIE]

Please identify the Catechism justification of the dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary based on Scripture, explained by Scripture, and supported by Scripture.

[OLD REGGIE]

While granting that Jesus is mentioned a lot more, Mary is mentioned 54 times, not "about 10."

A simple word count of Mary mentioned in the New testament won't do. You must account for numerous "other" Mary's, Mary Magdalene is prominent in this "other" group.

[OLD REGGIE]

"For one thing, there have been so many Protestants who have converted and who have written their conversion stories, as well as former Protestants who have written apologetics books, that there is a huge amount of information which would not have been available before the Internet age. I will pray that you will try again and that you will be successful this time...".

Conversions go in many different directions, not simply Protestant to Catholic.

What do you have to say concerning the millions of Catholics who have converted to another religion?

[adiaireton8]

Please justify the requirement that a doctrine be "based on Scripture, explained by Scripture, and supported by Scripture", by showing how that requirement itself is "based on Scripture, explained by Scripture, and supported by Scriptrue."

-A8

[pjr12345]

Obvoiusly the Word did not speak directly to you or you wouldn't have had so many questions that you couldn't get answered by the priests you asked.

I gave you historical information. I never said I was frozen in time.

The problem with "letting the Word speak directly to you," is that you are capable of getting the wrong message. You, as a human being, can make a mistake. In fact, you are making a mistake right now by interpreting the Scriptures yourself.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2Tim 2:15)

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." (Isaiah 1:18)

God wants us to study his Word.

The Catholic Church cannot make a mistake

The latest news regarding the Roman church and its clergy refute this point famously.

Jesus said that He would give the Holy Spirit to the Church, to lead it into all Truth.

Please provide Scriptural support to this assertion.

Besides, as a Protestant, which part are you going to be in agreement with?

I am not a Protestant, as I am not protesting anything. I acknowledge the God-given right of each person to exercise their free will.

The Baptists, the Church of Christ, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Pentecostals, the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, etc., etc.?

I do not support any form of denominationalism. I acknowledge the authority of God-breathed Scripture, and reject any supplemental document that men produce. The example of the Church provided in the historical book of Acts demonstrates congregational independence, and doctrinal unity based upon the Revelation spoken through the Apostles, which has been preserved in writings that we now call the New Testament.

They can't all be right!

The Bible states that "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation," (2Pet 1:20). This means that there are no hidden codes or meanings. It says what it means and means what it says. The various linguistic gymnastics undertaken by so many to twist meaning to support their Ism is contrary to God's intent. For example, sexual perversion and homosexuality are clearly condemned in Romans 1. Yet the Anglican/Episcopal church (and others) have decided to lean to their own understanding and justify the behavior.

Plus the fact that Jesus prayed, in His High Priestly Prayer, that "we all be one."

Never heard of Jesus having issued a "High Priestly Prayer". Again, please provide a scriptural reference. As to His desire that His Church be one. It's very true, and His Church is one, spiritually. Anyone who believes and obeys Jesus is part of His body, the Church- added by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2). The key word is "spiritually"-- God never once mentions any organization that holds authority to dispense His mercy and grace. Any such organization is not authorized by Scripture.

The 30,000 different denominations (and growing) surely must break His heart.

The example in Acts shows that each individual congregation of believers is wholly independent, and connected through their common faith. While I am opposed to denominationalism (see above), I am equally opposed to any hierarchical organization of man set up as rulers/priests. I refer you again to Hebrews 10.

In short, I notice you are long on opinion, and short on Scripture. If you care to continue, please provide in-context, Scriptural support for you assertions. Also, you have yet to respond to any Scriptural support I have given. As I stated earlier, everyone chooses their authority. Given that you ignore Scripture that disagrees with your beliefs, I have no choice but to conclude that, regardless of your statements, you do not concede its authority.

[pjr12345]

Who do you think the letter to the Romans was written to??? Martians?

[OLD REGGIE]

This is the one... Sorry, got the number of years a bit off!

http://www.catholicevangelism.org/h-canon1.shtml

I certainly hope you know I was only pulling your leg.

For a different view. Look here.

[OLD REGGIE]

Please justify the requirement that a doctrine be "based on Scripture, explained by Scripture, and supported by Scripture", by showing how that requirement itself is "based on Scripture, explained by Scripture, and supported by Scriptrue."

I suggest you ask your compatriot nanetteclaret (Post #147) since I was not the one who made that claim in the first place.

[OLD REGGIE]

Who do you think the letter to the Romans was written to??? Martians?

The Christians in Rome, not to the church in Rome. Why don't you try reading Romans for yourself? It might be enlightening.

[adiaireton8]

She is not claiming that the teachings of the Catechism conform to *your* interpretation of Scripture. But if you are interested, here's a link providing a Scriptural defense of the dogma of Marys' Assumption.

-A8

[pjr12345]

My apologies, I concede to your hair-splitting. The letter was written "to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called saints". NASB

That implies a local congregation of believers... a church (little "c"), not The Church. At the same time, it provides the biblical definition of "saint"; and it ain't dead people appointed by a guy in a dress with a funny hat ; )~

[Frank Sheed]

Sure, if you will first quote the Scripture verse in the Bible that identifies (1) the Canon of Scripture and (2) which books the Bible should contain.

I have my whole life to wait for that answer...

[Frank Sheed]

You gotta believe something, Reggie, besides 2,000 years of history and hundreds of Church Fathers who left their works in books, sermons or letters or else you are left worshipping a book that does not verify itself.


Want to try "Church Fathers" for $2,000?

[kawaii]

(Noting that if you beleive those who Baptise and Beleive truly die you aren't Christian)

From OrthodoxWiki:

Saint

A saint (from Latin, sanctus) is one who is holy, that is, set apart for God's service.

Saints in the Bible

In the Holy Scripture, the word saint is used to refer to those who have been set apart for the service of God, consecrated for his purposes. As such, all members of the Church are called saints, regardless of their personal holiness or sinlessness. It is still appropriate to use the term in this way.

Saints in the Church

Aside from the more general use of the word saint to refer to all members of the Church, Holy Tradition also ascribes Saint as a title to particular persons whose lives have shown most clearly what it means to follow Jesus Christ. These saints are popularly glorified (canonized) by the Church, often in the modern era with a formal service to recognize and affirm the veneration of them by the faithful.

Saints are not thought of as either perfect or infallible, and it is only because of the work of Christ in them that the Church praises these people. It is because we see our Lord's countenance reflected most clearly in their faces that we publicly laud them, ask them to pray for us, and encourage one another to follow their examples.

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Saint

[nanetteclaret]

I'm sorry I don't have time to reply to all your points, but for starters here is this:

Jesus' High Priestly Prayer, praying that we all be one, can be found in the 17th Chapter of John - right before His betrayal:

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The Catholic Church's individual members can most definitely make a mistake, but the doctrine it teaches cannot. Here is the Scripture verse:

John 16
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Here are the Scripture verses showing that God does mention an organization "that holds authority to dispense His mercy and grace.":

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 20:21-23
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Matthew 16:17-19
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.