'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[xzins]

"We worship our God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost; but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal."

[xzins]

"We worship our God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost; but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal."

[Forest Keeper]

That is not to raise election or predestination v free will - but rather, who or Who is responsible for the good that is done in the life of a Christian? I take the latter view all credit goes to God because apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15).

Amen, and thanks for the ping. I actually would go so far as to say this is related to election. My understanding of Roman Catholicism is that men make the final free will decision on accepting Christ [who], whereas Calvinists believe that God has already made the final decision on His elect [Who].

[hosepipe]

[ The three - Father, Son, Spirit - are different Persons but there is no "bright red line" between them. I cannot tell you where one lets off and the other begins. ]

Well said... God bless "US" if the same could be said about "US".. all of us not just you and myself.. and Boopie of course.. ;)~

[Blogger]

They are the writings of men inspired by the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the writings was that God wanted to reveal something of Himself to human beings. The whole of God is incomprehensible to our meager minds; but He certainly has given us enough to keep our minds busy and to help them grow.

[Forest Keeper]

Sin is a deadly disease. God is the physician, without Him we cannot cure ourselves and attain health, nor--out of love and respect for the freedom He gave us, not out of lack of power--does He cure us without our cooperation.

This I have never understood about the Apostolic faith. To continue the analogy, God as physician simply advises His patients how to eat right, live a healthy lifestyle, etc. But, when He sees evidence that a patient is not following His advice, even in matters of life and death, He just chalks it up to that person's free will. That is the extent of the power He chooses to exert in the matter.

I see this is being directly opposed to the analogy we are given over and over again in the Bible, that of parent-child. While my children live under my roof and I "own" them, in matters of life and death I have absolutely zero love and respect for their free wills. They don't know enough to do what is in their own best interests many times, so I step in to "save" them from themselves. I think this is much closer to how it works with God. Even as mature adults, the human will blow it. God must step in and save those He chooses as His children from themselves.

Theosis is not 'awarded', but attained, not though our efforts or merits, but through our cooperation with God's freely given grace.

My first use of the "awarded" idea was in response to something Kosta said. I was, in effect, asking if he was describing theosis as an award vs. being an attainment. As of your post, he has answered that it is an award, but it is possible that I misinterpreted. It is also possible there has been further discussion which I haven't caught up to yet, so ...

BTW, how does one cooperate without effort or merit?

[Blogger]

You are busily earning the Calvinist reputation for gloominess.
Well, the state of unregenerate mankind is not exactly something to jump and cheer about. My joy is present though. I glory and take joy in the Lord, my Savior. Outside of Him, the picture truly is gloomy.

Oh my goodness. Somebody might misunderstand! We can't have Marian festivals or conferences because a condemned man might misunderstand? I hear the little ones saying "Harold be thy name," and we are worried about "Theotokos" confusing them while saying the Bible won't? Either way, it's just a demo that people need the Church (or some interpreter, as the Ethiopian Eunuch did: How can I unless someone show me?)
What your church does gives all appearances of worshipping Mary. If you want to go ahead and give those appearances then have at it.

Wow do you ever NOT get the Calvinist, "Neo-Orthodox" side of the Episcopal Church! Minimal vestments, no clerical collars, like to be called Mister. YOU can tell the bishops (or could back when PECUSA worshipped God Most High, because of the absence of pointy hats. But yeah, I'll cop to some education and to being a dab smarter than my daughter thinks I am.
There are various strains of Catholicism, Episcopalianism, Baptist, Presbyterian, etc., My "getting" Episcopalian church should not be judged by the brief mention of it in the previous post.

Did the guy you asked think that we think Mary antedates God or did he think somebody else might think we think that?
My exact question to him, without any prodding whatsover, was "If you were to hear the term, Mary, Mother of God, what would it mean to you?" As I said, this not a theologian, just an average somewhat nominal Christian who goes to church regularly but avoids extending himself too much (can't get him into Sunday School for anything). His immediate response was "Well, I think it would mean that she was before God was." He and I do not discuss theology on any regular basis, so I do not believe that my influence was present in that answer.

Sometime back I adduced the JW's as examples of what you can get with Sola Scriptura. THEN you said that they use a bad translation (stipulated - with knobs on) and that one needed to spend a LOT of time with Scripture to get what it was saying.
I do not recall saying that one needed to spend A LOT of time with Scripture to understand its meaning. I recall saying that one needed to have the Holy Spirit in one's life to understand it. A baby Christian will understand that which he/she is supposed to understand. As that person spends more time in Scripture, more truths are revealed.

So the, "you don't have much time" argument seems dicey to me.
I don't understand why you would say this. If I were in the same situation outlined above on that elevator; 1)He would not see a Miraculous Medal on my lapel so Mary wouldn't be an issue. 2) He would probably see a Bible in my hand. If he inquired what is that book, I would say that it is God's message of forgiveness to mankind. In it we find that God so love the world that He gave His only Son, Jesus, God in the flesh, who died on a cross to pay the penalty for our sins; that whoever trusts in Him for forgiveness of his/her sins will be forgiven and will live with Him for all eternity. Would you like to trust in Jesus?

Why won't you take YES for an answer. I say God doesn't ask permission, He may do something LIKE asking for permission. Because it is not scriptural. God states the facts, he doesn't ask permission. He says, factually, Look I'm standing here and knocking. If you hear me and open the door to me, I will commune with you. If I said to you, If you post to me, I will post to you as well. I'm not asking permission to post to you. I'm stating what will happen in the order of events. Again, God doesn't ask permission. He states what will occur. With Mary it wasn't even a do this and I'll do that. Rather, it was "This is what I'm about to do. Period." Her response was not "You have my permission." But basically "Amen! So be it!"

[Kolokotronis]

"They are the writings of men inspired by the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the writings was that God wanted to reveal something of Himself to human beings. The whole of God is incomprehensible to our meager minds; but He certainly has given us enough to keep our minds busy and to help them grow."

Absolutely. But ponder on this, maybe everything we need to know to attain theosis is there and maybe those who have attained theosis "knew" everything that we need to know, but don't.

[Kolokotronis]

"God states the facts, he doesn't ask permission. He says, factually, Look I'm standing here and knocking. If you hear me and open the door to me, I will commune with you. If I said to you, If you post to me, I will post to you as well. I'm not asking permission to post to you. I'm stating what will happen in the order of events. Again, God doesn't ask permission. He states what will occur."

Do you think your comment above squares with this?:

"The Holy Spirit comes when we are receptive. He does not compel. He approaches so meekly that we may not even notice. If we would know the Holy Spirit we need to examine ourselves in the light of the Gospel teaching, to detect any other presence which may prevent the Holy Spirit from entering into our souls. We must not wait for God to force Himself on us without our consent. God respects and does not constrain man. It is amazing how God humbles Himself before us. He loves us with a tender love, not haughtily, not with condescension. And when we open our hearts to Him we are overwhelmed by the conviction that He is indeed our Father. The soul then worships in love."

[Blogger]

No I don't.

[Blogger]

Incidentally, I don't think that the quote is Scriptural either.

Paul was not receptive to the Holy Spirit when He came. Paul got receptive really quickly though!

If the Holy Spirit waited on our receptivity then none of us would ever be saved. "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

We only become receptive after the Holy Spirit has made us alive to His truth. We do not seek God, He comes after us. He does not force as if it were against our will. Rather, He changes our will and desire so that we come because we want to come. His call is effectual.

[Forest Keeper]

FK: "... ours does not include a pope. Ours includes the Holy Spirit instead."

...

It was then that I realized that becoming Catholic meant trusting that the Holy Spirit would guide the Church. It doesn't mean intentionally turning away from the Spirit and intentionally putting the Pope up in His stead. From without, that may be what it looks like. But from within it's not gee, door 1: Holy Ghost; door 2: Spirit of God.

Perhaps I was using too much short hand. :) I didn't mean to imply that I think the Holy Spirit doesn't guide the Pope. He certainly does because he is a Christian. My beef is with any idea that the Pope is the only one on the planet who gets super-duper grace, to the point of divine perfection (ex Cathedra). From without, that not only makes him appear to be a "king", but a king with a unique pipeline to God. From without, this would appear to put him on an equal footing with the Apostles and the prophets. It is a difficult concept for us to accept. :)

[Forest Keeper]

We as humans may get it wrong sometimes, but we don't speak in our own authority we speak by the authority of Scripture. FK, we also do not claim infallibility. Nor do we believe a Pope when he says he is infallible just because he says he is.

Amen. Exactly right, Blogger.

[Forest Keeper]

I enumerated though the things on which, to avoid vainpopery, you need to become more modest: Stick to "I think that the scripture without the oral tradition or the institution of the Church is sufficient for understanding Christ"; "I think that faith alone is necessary for salvation", "I don't think praying to saints is a good idea", etc.

This was originally in response to my saying that we did not want or need a Pope. I'm still not certain of the connection. Does this mean that only the Pope may declare anything with confidence? Do you want us to preface every statement with "I think" or "I suppose" in order to be consistent with our claim of not being our own popes? :) That wouldn't make sense to me. Our authority is scripture, yours is that plus more. We both use our respective authorities to declare our views.

[kosta50]

Sin is a deadly disease. God is the physician, without Him we cannot cure ourselves

This I have never understood about the Apostolic faith...

Our Lord Jesus Christ makes that analogy, FK (cf. Mat 9:30-31)

A physician can heal, but his patients must cooperate.

He just chalks it up to that person's free will

No, He patiently offers again and again.

While my children live under my roof and I "own" them, in matters of life and death I have absolutely zero love and respect for their free wills

But they still have free will and, short of making them robots, that free will can produce catastrophic results no matter how much you 'own' them. They choose to obey you.

My first use of the "awarded" idea was in response to something Kosta said

Attainment first, award later.

As of your post, he has answered that it is an award, but it is possible that I misinterpreted. It is also possible there has been further discussion which I haven't caught up to yet, so ...

You that right, FK! :)

[FormerLib]

Oh, I sincerely doubt that FL, a profoundly Orthodox person, simplifies the Trinity in so modern, innovative and Protestant a fashion.

And you are correct, of course. These people cannot understand the most straightforward lessons in Scripture. There just comes that point when one realizes the time has come to shake the dust off one's sandals.

[Forest Keeper]

When I ask any Saint to intercede it is exactly the way I would ask a friend (and typically in the same circumstances). A friend that I very much respect but a friend.

OK, I am much less familiar with the structure of an Orthodox prayer to a Saint. This sounds very different from the RC prayers I have been shown.

[P-Marlowe]

There just comes that point when one realizes the time has come to shake the dust off one's sandals.

Bye.

[Kolokotronis]

"No I don't."

It is a different view from yours, isn't it. It is from the writings of a very, very holy Orthodox monastic, Archimandrite Sophrony of blessed memory, a Russian who spent the majority of his life on Mount Athos, seven of those years as a solitary, and in a monastery outside London of all places. His entire life was spent in prayer and study of the scriptures. He died in 1993.

Isn't it interesting that the indwelling of the HS lead this man to a vision of God so different from that which we hear about in the West?

[Kolokotronis]

"OK, I am much less familiar with the structure of an Orthodox prayer to a Saint."

I think as a general proposition on a personal basis it may be rather less formulaic while on a liturgical basis more formal. As an example of how we pray for help to a saint, here's a prayer from the vespers for today's feast, which has to do with the relics of my patron saint +John Chrysostomos:

Apolytikion in the Plagal of the Fourth Tone

The grace of your words illuminated the universe like a shining beacon. It amassed treasures of munificence in the world. It demonstrated the greatness of humility, teaching us by your own words; therefore, O Father John Chrysostom, intercede to Christ the Logos for the salvation of our souls.