Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
" The way Protestants see it, man's Fall, then, was not (could not be) against His will and therefore is not an injustice to God that requires justice."
Justice has to do with rewards or punishment according to what one merits. Man can't perform an injustice to God for he can't reward God or punish God. Man's fall was according to the plan and purpose of God and his redemption is according to the plan and purpose of God. There is no injustice here. Those that will perish will do so according to the plan of God and according to their own will. None will say, "if only I knew I would change my mind." Revelation is clear that they will curse God, try to hide from God, and will choose to be buried under avalanches rather than submit to God. They are content to die eternally worshiping the god of their own choosing; SELF!
I do know Him, personally, and Christ through Him, personally – and have known Him for nigh onto a half century - not as concepts, but as Persons.
Evidently you cannot receive this, nevertheless to those who also know Him I testify that the indwelling Spirit (John 15-17, Romans 8, I Cor 2) authenticates both Peter’s testimony and Paul’s epistles:
The Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies does not mention any change to the Masoretic Text needed with reference to Deuteronomy 32:1-4. However, although we do have a non-MT Hebrew version of Deutoronomy 32 from cave 4, 4QDt(q) – it only contains lines 37-43. So we cannot read anything into an omission here in comparing DSS to LXX.
But as to the faithfulness of the Torah itself there is no question. As I have already testified, the indwelling Spirit authenticates Scripture and leads us into Truth. (John 14, 15):
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
There were three different tasks of copying the OT. The Sopherim wrote the consonantal text. The Nakdanim added the vowel points and accents. The Masoretes added the marginal notes. An example is the Kethib (what is written) and Qere (what should be read). There are over 1,300 of these. The vowels of the Qere were written in the text of the Kethib. There are three different systems of vowel pointing, the Babylonian, Palestinian and Tiberian which the Masoretes created. The marginal notes called Masora were mainly written in Aramaic and were like a concordance.
Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls the Nash Papyrus was the oldest known witness to the OT which dated to the first or second century AD. It contained the decalogue. The second oldest were the Cairo Geniza fragments (about 200,000) which date to the fifth century AD (See Princeton Geniza Project). Most of these are in the Cambridge University Library and the Bodleian Library at Oxford. Today the oldest known text of the OT was discovered in 1979 in tombs across the Hinnom valley from Jerusalem. The text is the benediction of Aaron (Numbers 6:24-26) written on a silver amulet from the 7th century BC (Hoerth 1998, 386).
The oldest surviving manuscript of the complete Bible is the Codex Leningradensis which dates to 1008 AD. A Facsimile edition of this great codex is now available (Leningrad Codex 1998, Eerdmans for $225). The BHS (Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia) follows this codex. The most comprehensive collection of old Hebrew manuscripts is in the Russian Public Library in St. Petersburg formerly called Leningrad. Another important text is the Aleppo Codex which is now in Jerusalem. The HUB (Hebrew University Bible) follows the Aleppo Codex. The Isaiah and Jeremiah editions are now available. For a more detailed study see The Text of the Old Testament by Ernst Wurthwein and Textual Criticism: Recovering the Text of the Hebrew Bible by P. Kyle McCarter, Jr.
Nevertheless, the Jews always understood their responsibility to keep the Torah:
Ancient Hebrew Translation Project - wrt the translation of poetic form v mechanical v literal
Spoken like one clueless of the "Spirit" in question..
I don't say that gladly either.. but sadly..
But indeed I'm not too sad.. I can pray for you.. am doing just that..
As are at least a couple others that I'm positive of.. You lucky dog..
I say that hopefully not to flame you, but to comfort you..
"The Holy Spirit was sent to the Apostles according to the Gospels, and witnessed by others, to guide them, not to teach them."
That's not the testimony of the scriptures.
Luke 12:12, "For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."
John 14:26, "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
1 John 2:27, "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
Amen. This is either true, or Scripture is false.
We can debate the genuineness of someone's knowledge, whether or not it is truly of the Holy Spirit, but we can never disallow that this is the means by which the Holy Spirit moves throughout Scripture, throughout our lives and throughout history.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." -- 1 John 4:1-6"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Beautiful passages. Praise God!
Maranatha, Jesus!
Not as commonly defined.
Jesus is whom he says he was, and still is..
-OR-
Jesus isn't whom he says he was, and still isn't..
And if he is and the Holy Spirit is operative also;...
“The Word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, dividing bone and marrow….”
True not as commonly defined..
BUT its not what you believe anyway its whom you ARE that counts...
"You MUST be born again"- Jesus..
Or as one person said.. You can put puppies in an oven(CHURCH) but that does not make them muffins..
Some would disagree with you on that distinction, however, this is in context of a discussion of the differences between churches and churches' authority and teachings.
Not real fond of the puppy analogy either when you apply it to souls.
He says that Sha'ul's writings are Scripture, and I agree with him. However, the Jews have a slightly different view of canonicity than we do. To most Christians, something is simply either canon or its not. To a Jew, all the Tanakh (and to a Messianic Jew, all the NT as well) is inspired and canon, but there are still differing levels of authority, with the Torah at the top, then the prophets, then the writings. The Torah, being the highest authority, was the plumb line to which every other Scripture must conform. Since Yeshua is the Living Torah, I put His words, even recorded by others, on the same level.
In regards to Sha'ul's writings, I regard them as Divinely-inspired commentary, since they are completely dependent on the Torah and the Gospel and simply seek to explain them. There are only a handful of cases where Sha'ul is revealing something new that he received by special revelation, and he's careful to identify those (and salvation by grace is not among them--that's from the Torah).
Since Sha'ul's writings are completely dependent on the Torah and Yeshua, they fall under the latters' authority, so they are not on the same plain. In terms of literary value, one must also rate the Torah and Yeshua higher for the same reason.
Again, that's not to denigrate Sha'ul--it's to elevate God Himself.
That would be culturally inconsistent for the reasons I've already given. He was far more frustrated with the Pharisees as a group because they were so close to the Truth, but were missing it (and causing others to miss it) because they could not admit that some (not all) of their traditions were wrong. Because they were closer to the truth, in effect having more light, He held them to a higher standard.
Look at it this way: The Sadducees were undeniably corrupt and had turned the Temple of God into their own private marketplace. But how much time did Yeshua spend debating with them the way He did the Pharisees? Not much. He cleared out the Temple and He answered a few direct questions during the Passion Week, but other than that He avoided them. It was the cultural equivalent to a brush-off, to saying that they weren't worth His time (again, as a group, not as individuals).
Or to put it another way: Who do you argue the most with, your brothers and sisters, or the neighbor down the street that you have nothing in common with?
The rhetoric in the NT against the Jews is very typical Oriental (Near-Eastern) behavior between members of a wider family; unfortunately, we Westerners with our different culture are looking at this family argument from the outside, and passing judgment on the members without understanding the family culture.
"by works a man is justified; and not by faith only" (James 2). Direct negation of "Faith alone".
I did compare The Message with the Greek original on a couple of occasions and found it grossly misleading. Far worse that even the common Protestant ones. I am not going to pore form it again to prove it to you; if you want to read from a mickey mouse translation, given everything else wrong in your belief system, it is not the worst of it.
Maybe. So I ask again, which "many centuries"? Unlike Woodstock, we have a long history.
Ah, someone with a specific time reference. I will do till early 5c, because that is probably what you had in mind.
AD 33 - 313 the relationship between the Church and the Roman Empire was that the latter fed the members of the former to lions for sport.
313-380 the Church was tolerated by the Empire and the persecutions largely stopped.
380-410 Christianity is the state religion of the Roman Empire, then Goths sack Rome. No more empire; Europe becomes a collection of independent principalities.
97 years, out of 4 centuries, of peace. 30 years of imperial Church. The only other empire I know in Europe is the EU today. They have paganism in their constitution.
"by works a man is justified; and not by faith only" is a direct negation of Faith Alone. If the scripture means anything, Luther was wrong.
Very solid advice, truly pleasant counsel. Thank you for including me in the posting of these comments.
Also interesting to note, as a sidebar, that this begins the Ecumenical Councils of Christianity - the canon, trinity, etc.
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