Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Firstborn is evidence. You have nothing Scripturally to say she didn't.
I don't believe you can separate the three members of the Trinity from being one God. I affirm the line from the Athanasian Creed. But my point is that you have to be very very careful about throwing the term "God" around and I don't believe you should go beyond what Scripture itself expresses. I believe the church was wrong to give Mary the title. It brings confusion. Their explanation is fair enough - though her exaltation beyond Scripture's guidance is not.
This matter of what to call the Most Holy Theotokos, who is a heretic and who isn't, was settled by The Church over 1600 years ago. It seems to me that since most of the proceedings of the Ecumenical Council at Ephesus are online, perhaps everyone should read them. Here's a link:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.x.ii.html
Just keep clicking "next" and you'll find all you need to know and then some. Accepting it or rejecting it is of course up to you individually.
Now as for heresy and heretics, well, The Church has pronounced its anathema through +Cyril at that Council thusly:
"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Θεοτόκος), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, “The Word was made flesh”] let him be anathema."
Now you can split all the hairs you want. The Church has seen them split before and likely more than you can think of. Unless you can accept the foregoing formulation without qualification, The Church declares you a heretic, cut off from The Church and as such there is nothing She can do for you until you repent. You are classed with Arius, Nestorius and a whole host of others. Likely the anathema of The Church will not bother you. You don't accept The Church (or the pronouncements of the 7 Ecumenical Councils) as we Orthodox and Catholics (and some Lutherans) define it. The Pope of the "Elder See at Rome" has declared that your communities are not properly churches but rather are "ecclesial communities" in great measure because of this. You don't accept that either and I am sure it causes you no lack of sleep. But there it is. Arguing with Catholics or Orthodox and/or some Lutherans about this is a total waste of time and bandwidth on both sides. The simple fact of the matter is that most Protestant Christology and Trinitarian theology has been and is branded heresy by The Church. That isn't going to change and I doubt any of you will.
To my Lutheran, Catholic and Orthodox brethren, these threads offer us an opportunity to become educated on what Protestants and others believe (for which I am very grateful) and vice versa, but after awhile, when heresy as defined by the Councils rears its head, it becomes a mistake to continue. Remember these words of +John Chrysostomos in his 6th Homily on Titus:
"By Contentions," he means, with heretics, in which he would not have us labor to no purpose, where nothing is to be gained, for they end in nothing. For when a man is perverted and predetermined not to change his mind, whatever may happen, why shouldest thou labor in vain, sowing upon a rock, when thou shouldest spend thy honorable toil upon thy own people, in discoursing with them upon almsgiving and every other virtue?
How then does he elsewhere say, "If God peradventure will give them repentance" (2 Tim. ii.25); but here, "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted and sinneth, being condemned of himself"? In the former passage he speaks of the correction of those of whom he had hope, and who had simply made opposition. But when he is known and manifest to all, why dost thou contend in vain? why dost thou beat the air? What means, "being condemned of himself"? Because he cannot say that no one has told him, no one admonished him; since therefore after admonition he continues the same, he is self-condemned."
The Church can not call cursed what Christ has blessed. Sorry. My hope is in Christ Jesus Himself, not the church.
What scriptural reference do you have to that?
Thank you. We have stated what we believe and how we see things. I think there is really nothing much more producitve that we can say to each other, FK.
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Underworld is probably a misnomer. I'll leave it at Paradise.
Given your description, what part did Mary play?
"I can't envision her as half Maori, either."
So, I take it, you would insist that any actress who plays the BVM must be Jewish, right?
That pretty much eliminates Mary from just about every church Nativity Play or pageant I've ever seen in any Catholic church or school I've ever been to. I've been to TONS of those, since I and all my kids went to Catholic school. I don't think I've ever seen a Jewish girl play Mary.
Last year I went to a school play where the Mary was a sweet-looking young African American girl. It was very touching.
I haven't seen the movie & I don't know if I will, but I think the race of the actress is not an issue.
The beauty of the gospel is that it is universally inspirational.
( I am the happy owner of an original painting by the Benedictine painter, Fr. John Giuliani, showing St. Joseph as a young Native American in a Navajo chief's blanket. I never gaze at it without feeling impelled to contemplate the mystery & glory of my faith.)
"We have no evidence that Mary had other kids."
"Scripture alone does not speak definitively on the subject."
"James was NOT Jesus' blood brother..."
Let's see if there is a problem with the conclusion from the two proposotions.
Ah, it must be that tradition thing again. Tell you what, I'll stick with the common sense understanding of brother as used by Mark, Luke, John and Paul and tangentially by Jude. You use whatever you want.
"Yes."
The doctrine of Holy Trinity was coined together by the Church fathers to combat heresies of Arius, Nestor, etc.The doctrine of Holy trinity is not in the Bible, but it's based on our faith in the Bible.
Was Mary the mother of God. No because she would have to be the mother of the Father and the Spirit as well since God is inseparably one
Obviously your church doesn't teach anything about the Divine Economy of our salvation and how the Hypostases act separately yet in harmony.
God does reveal Himself to us as three separate Persons, and these separate Divine Persons act and accomplish different steps in our salvation.
By your logic Christ never left. But He said He would, and that in His stead He would sent the Holy Spirit to watch over us. That's not "possible" in your theology because God is "inseparably one."
You really believe, in the most base way, that Mary served Joseph after she gave birth to Christ.
I believe that Mary loved Joseph, her husband ... who had stood by her faithfully.
The Doctrine of the Trinity IS taught in Scripture, but there isn't a single verse you can go to. You have to take Scripture in its entire context and you get there.
I am aware of the "Divine Economy" of salvation and the roles of the Godhead. I think we've worn the Mary Mother of God thing to death. She is the mother of Jesus per the Bible and that's where I stand.
Jesus is God. God is Omnipresent. Jesus is Omnipresent. He by his very nature is not bound by our elements of space and time.
Jesus is God. God is Omnipresent. Jesus is Omnipresent. He by his very nature is not bound by our elements of space and time
The Bible says He left and that He will return. He also left the Holy Spirit in His stead. Are you saying the Bible says otherwise or do you just like to counter anything I say?
Can't do the unity of Scripture thing unless there is a single interpreter who can reconcile the diversity of its expressions. That interpreter is not you or men, and I certainly don't believe your teaching is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that this common sense was lacking until very recently?
"Doesn't it strike you as odd that this common sense was lacking until very recently?"
It was lacking only in "The Church".
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