Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
But you still have to rely on the Church's judgement as to which books are Scripture. What ever criterion, other than the Church's judgement, you purport to bring forward ('undoubted apostolic authorship' is the usual one you sola scriptura types usually propose), you have no criterion for verifying that the canon of the New Testament and no other books satisfy it other than relying on the ancient Church's judgment and the long tradition of the Church.
If you trust the Church to have judged rightly which books are Scripture, why do you distrust the Church's judgement on other matters?
Again, what evidence can you set forth that the Holy Spirit led the Church correctly to fix the canon of Scripture at the Council of Carthage and the Fourth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils that ratified that local decision, the former implicitly in the phrase 'ancient canons', the later explicitly, but that the Fathers went astray at the Fifth Ecumenical Council?
What evidence do you have that you exist? You are asking the impossible. You are asking me a question like "prove to me that God exists and is exactly as He appears in the Bible. I can give you reasons I believe, but no proof that will satisfy you.
Nevertheless, I'll take a crack at it. I believe what I believe for the same reasons you believe what you believe. I accept by faith that the Holy Spirit led the early church concerning what was canonical. My faith is bolstered when I actually study the books and see the unity within them. They have a harmony that the other "books" do not have. And, I'm not talking about just the New Testament. The New Testament is in harmony with the old. The old with the new. They tell one story from the beginning of time until now of One God and His message to mankind. No other group of writings (be they the pseudo this and that or even the apocrypha) comes close.
So, frankly it wasn't the Church's judgment I trusted in to get the Canon right. It was the Holy Spirit's guidance. He can make an ass speak. He can certainly make a group of people from disparate backgrounds do what He wills them to do.
Regarding the church's judgment, I will take Paul's que here.
ACTS 17
10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The "Church" isn't wrong on everything. But what they make pronouncements upon MUST stand up to the Scripture test. If it contradicts Scripture, it should be tossed. That is the standard. Subjective? At times. But not so much as you "non-sola-scriptura types" would imagine. There is one Spirit. He leads me in the right path.
Her womb was not just the tabernacle, or the sanctuary, but the Holy of Holies, because God dwelt in it. Not figuratively, but literally.
This is a holy image of Our Lady that is most expressive of her essence as the first, pre-Petrine, Church. Note also the three stars, on her forehead and the shoulders. They represent, in the Orthodox tradition, her three "childhoods", that is her natural birth, the virgin birth of her Son, and her sinless life till death. Thought you'd like to know.
Maybe you have heard of Incarnation and Resurrection?
New Jerusalem will be headed by Christ Himself, not the prince of this world
Christ is also from this world. He was born, walked, died and resurrected in it.
There will be no comparison to anything humans could come up with
Then you must not believe that those "in heaven" will be Christ-like.
A holy image??? What is signified by such designation?
I mean, I am being serious here and want to hear an answer from someone who sees this image as something other than pretty artwork with a lot of symbolism in it.
What do the icons symbolize to you? What do you think when you look at them? Do you pray to them? Do you expect to get something from devotion to them?
What is Greek/Catholic iconography to you?
Yes, we do.
Your turn!
Do any of you billion-plus Popes ever get them right?
Beautiful.
Thank you.
LOLOL! If you had to sing the refrain of "Our God is an Awesome God" twenty-five time you wouldn't have any time either. Yes, yes; I know. The only church fathers us Protestants know are the greeters at the doors and canons are those things sitting outside the American Legion halls. Why bother with studying old dead guys writings when you can listen to a verse of scripture, an anedotical story about it and the pastor's opinion (from the latest commentary)? Protestants have it so much simplier. ;O)
I would have to agree with wagglebee on this although not the Catholic idea. The mechanics of the divine conception can't be determine. All we know is that it was not through Joseph (or anyone else for that matter) that it happened. At the same time neither was it an act of Mary. There wasn't anything more special about Mary then there was Joseph.
Mary obviously carried the Lord Jesus to full term. She went to visit Elizabeth. They had to travel to Bethlehem. Matthew and Luke both indicates there was a time delay. There was nothing magical about her womb.
HD, I agree.
Would you agree that Mary is the Mother of God?
An image or picture (ikona) of a human being who is holy or saintly.
I am being serious here and want to hear an answer from someone who sees this image as something other than pretty artwork with a lot of symbolism in it
Icons are not art. Icons are not painted; they are written. They tell a visual story of biblical events, or theological concepts. They were used for people who could not read the bible to convey bibilical passages.
What do the icons symbolize to you?
They are not symbols.
What do you think when you look at them?
Admiration. We think of the holy person whose life was devoted to God, who as a saint represents someone we admire and consider our moral and spiritual role model.
Do you pray to them?
No, not to the canvas and the paint, or the physical image. Our prayers are not directed at the object, but at the person in heaven. We pray to Christ; we venerate the saints.
Do you expect to get something from devotion to them?
The hope of all Christians is to become like Christ. Some, the saints, have done a better job of it than most of us. We hope that by following in their examples and steps, we, too, can approach that goal.
"We, therefore, following the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers and the traditions of the Catholic Church (for, as we all know, the Holy Spirit indwells her), define with all certitude and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy churches of God, and on the sacred vessels and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady, the Mother of God, of the honourable Angels, of all Saints and of all pious people. For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence (aspasmon kai timhtikhn proskunh-sin), not indeed that true worship of faith (latreian>) which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these, as to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross and to the Book of the Gospels and to the other holy objects, incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented. For thus the teaching of our holy Fathers, that is the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other hath received the Gospel, is strengthened. Thus we follow Paul, who spake in Christ, and the whole divine Apostolic company and the holy Fathers, holding fast the traditions which we have received. So we sing prophetically the triumphal hymns of the Church, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Sion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Rejoice and be glad with all thy heart. The Lord hath taken away from thee the oppression of thy adversaries; thou art redeemed from the hand of thine enemies. The Lord is a King in the midst of thee; thou shalt not see evil any more, and peace be unto thee forever."
Those, therefore who dare to think or teach otherwise, or as wicked heretics to spurn the traditions of the Church and to invent some novelty, or else to reject some of those things which the Church hath received (e.g., the Book of the Gospels, or the image of the cross, or the pictorial icons, or the holy reliques of a martyr), or evilly and sharply to devise anything subversive of the lawful traditions of the Catholic Church or to turn to common uses the sacred vessels or the venerable monasteries, if they be Bishops or Clerics, we command that they be deposed; if religious or laics, that they be cut off from communion.
So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed. This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. Believing in one God, to be celebrated in Trinity, we salute the honourable images !
Those who do not so hold, let them be anathema.
Those who do not thus think, let them be driven far away from the Church. For we follow the most ancient legislation of the Catholic Church. We keep the laws of the Fathers.
We anathematize those who add anything to or take anything away from the Catholic Church.
We anathematize the introduced novelty of the revilers of Christians. We salute the venerable images.
We place under anathema those who do not do this.
Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about idols.
Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.
Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.
Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods.
Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God.
Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols."
No, for sure. God doesn't do magic tricks. Incarnation, like Resurrection, was not magic (except for Gnostics), but a miracle, and a mystery we don't understand.
Mary's womb was chosen to contain the limitless and timless God. Where God dwells on earth, in Person, is Holy of Holies, except for Protestants. I guess they are "above" that.
"If you had to sing the refrain of "Our God is an Awesome God" twenty-five time you wouldn't have any time either."
HD, you are an absolute joy! :) I'm really glad you're here on these threads! Have a blessed Sunday, my brother.
ROTFLOL!
Define the GOC's understanding of anathema.
"Define the GOC's understanding of anathema."
Here's a pretty good definition of the word in this context:
"In the acts of the Councils and the further course of the New Testament Church of Christ, the word "anathema" came to mean complete separation from the Church. "The Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes," "let him be anathema," "let it be anathema," means a complete tearing away from the Church. While in cases of "separation from the communion of the Church" and other epitimia or penances laid on a person, the person remained a member of the Church, even though his participation in her grace-filled life was limited. Those given up to anathema were thus, completely torn away from her until their repentance. Realizing that she is unable to do anything for their salvation, in view of their stubbornness and hardness of heart, the earthly Church lifts them up to the judgement of God. That judgement is merciful unto repentant sinners, but fearsome for the stubborn enemies of God. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God . . . for our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 10:31; 12:29)."
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