Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
My dear friend Charlie used to say “Whom the Lord Loveth, He Buggeth.” Sounds about right.
It's a generalization. Certainly there are great Baptists today like John MacArthur and John Piper who are very well grounded in the word. Then who can forget the great Baptists of the past; Matthew Henry, John Gill, Charles Spurgeon, etc.?
But an inherent problem in Baptist church structure is they tend not to be focus on theology. They have 6 or 7 major statements that they adhered to and that's it. Consequently you have people like Rick Warren and John Piper being lumped together in the same group.
I'm not being unkind. This is documented and acknowledged to be a problem among the Southern Baptists. They have acknowledged that for years they've spent too much time focusing on evangelism and not enough time on theology. I posted an article on this quite a while ago (probably a year or two). The problem is not emphasizing doctrine. Here is another article on the matter and it's about half way down, but this isn't a secret. A simple Google will pull up all sorts of these articles.
ALL infants, baptized or not, will go to heaven. Good grief. Their innocence will assure them of that.
Typical response to hard questions.
I also find your posts persistently in great violation of your own diatribes.
What was that you were saying about that plank?
Fascinating. But not enough fascinating to continue to bother.
Tough questions that dispel an assertion usually are met with that type of reponse.
Have a nice day.
Doesn't it make sense that the Christians of the 100 AD time frame were merely following what they had been taught by Paul and the rest of the Apostles?
Some did and some did not.
Where is the outcry from all of those "real" Christians who said "hey, those Catholics got it all wrong"
Historical fallacy, Roman Catholicism does NOT follow what the first and second century Church taught and practiced. Most of Roman Catholicism developed after the 6th century.
Where are the "reformed" Christians???
We've been here all along, as The Church.
1. We are just as fallen and desperate as those crowding around for Jesus' touch along the dusty paths.
NEWSFLASH: Christ Jesus, the Great Physician provided the cure for the malady of the fallen, sinful nature and conquered the death wrought by sin ON THE CROSS!
John 19:
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
Ephesians 2:
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
Christ accomplished the miracle that the fallen and desperate need by being the ransom who Redeemed our souls by paying the full debt we all owe God for our sin, and has seated the saints in heavenly places already IN Christ.
The fierce assertions in your posts provide quite a lot of evidence . . .
Please learn how to read in context. Allow me to spell it out. My reply was to your arrogant, boasting assertion that you had done far greater things than I, when in reality you have no earthly idea what works I have done, nor will I inform you of them either, because they are none of your business, but I can assure you, the One who's business it is, knows, and that is all that matters. I have no need to puff myself up and make arrogant boasts of doing "greater things".
The fierce assertions in your posts provide quite a lot of evidence . . .
And exactly what "fierce assertions" are you referring to? Be specific!
Also, what exactly are these so called, "fierce assertions" so called, "evidence" of? Be specific!
Or are you hinting that you’ve been deceptive?
Please learn how to read in context, for comprehension.
I've been computer-handicapped for several days now, so I just found this excellent post.
"Rather that faith being in God, the object of faith, it becomes faith in faith."
That's eloquently precise. Faith in faith rather than faith in God...and all which that entails.
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I've been computer-handicapped for several days now, so I just found this excellent post.
"Rather that faith being in God, the object of faith, it becomes faith in faith."
That's eloquently precise. Faith in faith rather than faith in God...and all which that entails.
What the Word of Faith teachers teach is a blend of the old heresy of Montanus, Gnosticism and the Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky, which is nothing but a form of witchcraft in modern dressing, which like witchcraft, is based on using universal forces to do the bidding of the adherents desires(in this case--the universal force of faith) to manipulate matter and thus create their own reality.
The likes of Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Charles Capps, Creflo Dollar or Joyce Meyers all teach a form of witchcraft dressed up for the consumption of Biblically illiterate, gullible Christians.
Perhaps you are not familiar with the Church Fathers, who write about the Real Presence of the Eucharist, the Sacrifice of the Mass, the veneration and prayers for intercessions from saints and Mary, the belief that Baptism saves and can be administered to infants, and other such things. Your "6th century development" is not backed up by what information we have available.
We've been here all along, as The Church.
Where are the distinctive "Protestant" theological constructs, such as Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide? Where are the "Protestant" communities? Which orthodox Christian wrote about that before the first millenium expired? To explore history is to find out that Protestantism is a late invention of men.
Regards
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Perhaps you are not familiar with the Church Fathers
Actually, I am familiar with the Church Fathers.
, who write about the Real Presence of the Eucharist
When the Church Fathers spoke of the real presence, they did NOT speak in the Roman Catholic terms of the Eucharist being transformed into the actual, flesh and blood of Christ. Transubstantiation as defined by Rome was a much later development.
, the Sacrifice of the Mass
The Church Fathers did not speak of the mass being a perpetual sacrifice as Rome came to define it.
, the veneration and prayers for intercessions from saints and Mary
The Church Fathers actually wrote against praying to anyone but God.
, the belief that Baptism saves and can be administered to infants
That was a development among some that was not accepted by all, or even most, but was debated with no consensus of agreement.
, and other such things. Your "6th century development" is not backed up by what information we have available.
Actually it IS backed up by the information we have available.
There really is Much truth in what you say.
And thanks for your kind comments and reply.
I do, however, belive that GOD HIMSELF has given a bigger place to miracles than your perspective seems to understand.
Many times miracles do either foster increased faith or trigger faith’s beginnings. I have observed this many times and experienced it some.
Certainly miracles are here today and gone tomorrow. And God still requires that WE WALK BY FAITH; the JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
As my teen pastor used to say re feelings—we walk by faith, not by feelings—but praise God for the feelings when He sends them; they occur; they arise. I think it is much the same with miracles.
It is as though the mountaintops are for . . . vision—and without a vision, the people perish.
But we slug it out with the world, the flesh and the devil in the valleys. And it is THE LORD OF THE VALLEYS that we all must learn to walk with and submit to in the nitty gritties without the miracles.
Perhaps we are closer there, then I’d understood that we were.
“Whom the Lord Loveth, He Buggeth.” Sounds about right.
= = =
Plenty truth to that!
Thx Dear Sis.
Well, the almost takeover by those Baptists with a lower opinion of Scripture . . . imho . . .
was a horrid prospect.
And the mission board of the SBC was taken over by some foolish expedience oriented folks that . . . made some very poor decisions vis a vis China.
That was a development among some that was not accepted by all, or even most, but was debated with no consensus of agreement.
Infants of believing households were always welcomed into the covenant by baptism as a sign and seal of God's grace. That is a FAR CRY from the blasphemous position of the RCC which says the sprinkling of holy water cleanses a baby of original sin and gives them free passage into the family of God by virtue of the sacrament. Baptismal regeneration is a lie.
Rome has shown that it can take most anything and turn it into idol worship.
Sola Scriptura - from a Catholic???? What is this world coming to??? :O)
Some RC’s place an extremely high value on the written Word.
Some.
But then . . .
Some RC’s place an extremely high value on the written Word.
Some.
But then, that’s true in any congregation in any denomination.
Where are the distinctive "Protestant" theological constructs, such as Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide?
Irenaeus:
We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.---"Against Heresies", 3:1.1, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 414.
Irenaeus says the Scriptures are the "ground and pillar of our faith." Protestants, so named by Roman Catholicism as a pejorative term during the Reformation agrees.
Athanasius:
The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.---"Against the Heathen", I:3, quoted in Carl A. Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church [Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1983], p. 147.)
Christians, whom Rome branded as "Protestants" agree that the Scriptures are wholly sufficient for the proclamation of the Truth---Sola Scriptura.
Gregory of Nyssa:
...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.---"On the Soul and the Resurrection", quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)
Christians whom Rome pejoratively branded as "Protestants" agree that "For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.----Sola Scriptura.
Rome disagrees.
Gregory of Nyssa:
Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.---"On the Holy Trinity", in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)
We Christians agree with Gregory on Sola Scriptura, Rome doesn't.
John Chrysostom:
Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer to [our own] calculation; but in calculating upon [theological] facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things---"Homily 13 on 2 Corinthians", in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. XII, p. 346.
Imagine that John Chrysostom espousing Sola Scriptura, AND espousing that the Christian NOT regard what another man thinks but to "inquire from the Scriptures";
Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things
Clearly Chrysostom was familiar with Paul's praising of the Bereans for inquiring of the Scriptures to see if what Paul was preaching was true. We Christians agree, Rome does not.
Where are the "Protestant" communities?
We were not called "protestant" then, we were called, "Christians".
We are the One, True, catholic Church and Rome an imposter.
Which orthodox Christian wrote about that before the first millenium expired? To explore history is to find out that Protestantism is a late invention of men.
The facts have just proven that party line assertion to be a fallacy and illusion of a great proportion.
Exactly, in your own estimation is "faith"?
Would you be so kind as to define what you think "faith" actually is?
Thanks.
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