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'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children
LifeSiteNews.com ^
| 12/4/2006
| John-Henry Westen
Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
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To: Kolokotronis
this expression of hatred As an aside, this is why I think the unity of the East and West will be restored sooner than it appears. The two worlds has interpenetrated again, for the first time since 5c. It is for the first time that Orthodoxy comes in direct contact with the dark forces of Reformation; it is bound to change the long-held assumptions about the Latin Church, that had to put up with them for centurues now.
To: Alamo-Girl
[... As always, my concern is to God be the glory" ..]
And absolutely NONE to some club(church) that men join and elect officers in.. I agree.. All the bright clothing, consecrated vessels, ceremonial hu haw, mood music, passion plays, and dogma and litergy.. are merely playing church like a child..
In one sense we must remain as a child in demeanor but in another sense we must grow in spirit/Spirit into a full grown man..
Therefore, ALL glory to God and NONE to mans playhouses..
13,942
posted on
05/04/2007 8:01:43 AM PDT
by
hosepipe
(CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus; kawaii; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; ...
In post #13,844 you are discussing traducianism/creationism, or whether souls are created or propagated
I am looking at the title and it clearly says How are Human Souls Created. It doesn't say "Propagated," HD, does it? Just wanted to make sure we are reading the same words. In this post you argued that souls are propagated-not created...My post was in regards to your traducianism/creationism argument in post #13,844. You made a statement that it is Gnostic and pagan to believe in the pre-existent theory
My reply to your post says "The soul doesn't propagate; the soul is created at the moment of conception." (13,921). I don't remember making a case for propagation of the soul; just against its pre-existence.
More importantly, post 13,844 clearly states that regardless which theory is correct both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. Are we reading the same text, HD or did you not read all of 13,844?
Yet when provided scriptural evidence (such as Ecc 12) to the contrary it is ignored
Talk about noticing a thorn in your brother's eye, and not seeing a log in yours! If you read post 13,844 as you seem to imply, you would realize that it contains at least six references that lead to the conclusion that the soul does not pre-exist the body which references you simply choose to ignore.
You made a statement that it is Gnostic and pagan to believe in the pre-existent theory. Yet when provided scriptural evidence (such as Ecc 12) to the contrary it is ignored
Ecc 12 makes no reference whether the soul pre-existed or not. It simply states what we believe, namely that God gives us the soul and that, after death, the sould goes back to Him.
God breathed into Adam his soul, meaning that Adam soul must have existed before Adam existedChrists soul existed prior to His birth-it must have since there are multiple examples in the Old Testament of Christs appearances (such as Melchizedek)
Jesus' soul was created at Incarnation.
Why this is such an important issue is that you would have us believe that the creator of souls is man
I am speechless. This is one of the most convoluted, out-of-the-left-field "conclusions" I have read so far. Where and when did I ever suggest that man creates the soul? Please provide a quote.
I am not a student of Origen, but a reading of what he taught states that he espoused a Platonic view of eternal souls achieving perfection while escaping the temporary, imperfect material world. He imagined even demons being reunited with God.
Origen was condemned for both his teaching of the pre-existence of the souls and his universal salvation theory, both of which are alien to Christianity. Sadly, some early Church Fathers (i.e. +Gregory of Nyssa, a one time student of Origen) subscribed to the universal salvation theory.
Quite frankly, this sounds like a variation of the Catholic view of purgatory.
The Church never considered Hell "temporary." the bible even states that God prepared a lake of eternal fire for the devil and his angles (cf Mat 25:41). (The idea of purgatory doe snot include Satan and his demons. But the idea of an interim state of the soul is based on the particular (immediate) judgment after death (cf Heb 9:27) which is not the Final Judgment.
And, not to offend, but isnt the Orthodox view one of man getting more and more like Christ as he sheds off the things of this world? This sound far more in keeping with Origens view than us westerners
No offense taken. The Orthodox teaching is based on the NT, that we should strive to be(come)* perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (cf Mat 5:48) It is a commandment, HD, for us to honestly try to achieve that even if we honestly fail.
*the Greek text is actually in future tense
13,943
posted on
05/04/2007 8:28:16 AM PDT
by
kosta50
(Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan
Dr. E - If election is based on "our own free will actions" then we are "obligating God to elect us."annalex-I choose, however, to match my rewards and punishments to what the child actually does, because I love my child.
So, let's put what you've just said into God's words:
[God] choose to match [His] rewards and punishments to what the child actually does
And you don't believe this is Pelagius' error?
To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
My source is Jewish commentary in the Torah. Go ask a rabbi
13,945
posted on
05/04/2007 8:36:42 AM PDT
by
1000 silverlings
("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; HarleyD
A-G: Weve been down this road before and I know we will disagree because you lean to the Greek and I lean to the Hebrew. Nevertheless, the Hebrew in Scripture - and Jewish tradition - speaks of the soul/spirit in four levels
A-G, thank you for your post. Hebrew concepts are helpful as an introduction, but Christianity is not Judaism, and that includes concepts of spirituality. So, I am not concerned with what the Jews believe. They reject the very essence of our faith (our Lord Jesus Christ), and there is nothing but an unbridgeable divide between us and them.
We read the same Old Testament and see the foreshadowing of Christ in it; they don't. So, what's the point of stating what they believe? We read the OT through the lens of the NT; they don't.
A-G: Paul speaks to these differences in Romans 8 - the one who has heard his Master's call must choose between being carnally minded or Spiritually minded, that if one does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Christ's.)
Saint Paul seems to speak of Trichotomy. The Church disagrees with that interpretation. The Gnostics embraced it, as is the case in some groups to this day.
13,946
posted on
05/04/2007 9:04:01 AM PDT
by
kosta50
(Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
To: 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
My source is Jewish commentary in the Torah. Go ask a rabbi Thank you for your charitable answer. You are a real sport. Is there a problem with sharing your source with the rest of us? Or did you just mnake this up?
13,947
posted on
05/04/2007 9:06:49 AM PDT
by
kosta50
(Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan
[God] choose to match [His] rewards and punishments to what the child actually does And you don't believe this is Pelagius' error?
Of course not. Nothing here denies sovereignty of God, denies original sin, and it follows the scriptural model to view God as Our Father.
To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
I don’t understand your response. The source is Jewish commentary. Many Jews no longer read the Torah, but rabbis do. They can confirm that whatI say is true.
13,949
posted on
05/04/2007 9:18:15 AM PDT
by
1000 silverlings
("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus; kawaii; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; ...
I don't remember making a case for propagation of the soul; just against its pre-existence.
If your argument is against the pre-existence of the soul, then it raises the question as to how the soul comes into being? From your article:
Traducianism is the theory that a soul is generated by the physical parents along with the body.
This is propagation. If you don't believe in the pre-existence of the soul, then you must believe in parential creation of the soul (propagation).
More importantly, post 13,844 clearly states that regardless which theory is correct both agree that the soul does not exist prior to conception. Are we reading the same text, HD or did you not read all of 13,844?
Yes, I read it all. Even with my short attention span it's not very long. The author makes a conclusion without any support of facts. He simple states:
Second, if God creates each individual soul at the moment it is needed, the separation of soul and body is held firm. The ultimate answer to the question is that the soul / spirit does not exist before it inhabits the body.
Well, now how did he draw THAT conclusion. Does he know when God creates a soul?
Talk about noticing a thorn in your brother's eye, and not seeing a log in yours! If you read post 13,844 as you seem to imply, you would realize that it contains at least six references that lead to the conclusion that the soul does not pre-exist the body which references you simply choose to ignore.
I didn't know that I was noticing any thorn. You're the one casting around Gnostic labels. The six references posted by this author that you feel argues against pre-existence are not very convincing. For example:
(A) In Genesis 2:7 God breathed the breath of life into Adam, something which did not happen again. (Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.) - You say this didn't happen again but you've failed to explain how Eve received her soul. (B) Adam had a son in his own likeness (Genesis 5:3). (Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:) - This doesn't state anything about the soul. All it says it that Seth was in his likeness.
God did no further creating (Genesis 2:2-3). Seems to me that if God did no further creating and ALL things were made through Him as John 1 states, that means all souls were created in the beginning.
I know the author sounds like he is trying to present both views but he fails to convince me.
Ecc 12 makes no reference whether the soul pre-existed or not.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. It states very clearly that the spirit shall return to God. If it is returning then it must have pre-existed.
I am speechless. This is one of the most convoluted, out-of-the-left-field "conclusions" I have read so far.
Then you obviously haven't read several of my other posts.
Where and when did I ever suggest that man creates the soul? Please provide a quote.
From your logic and website. You are saying that God stopped creating back in Genesis 2 (which I would happen to agree with). If this is the case, then how can a new born baby born today have a soul if God has not already created them? Where did this soul come from and when? Please explain.
Origen was condemned for both his teaching of the pre-existence of the souls and his universal salvation theory, both of which are alien to Christianity.
Can you provide a reference? My understanding is that Origen view of the soul extended far more than simply the pre-existence issue.
The Orthodox teaching is based on the NT, that we should strive to be(come)* perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. (cf Mat 5:48) It is a commandment, HD, for us to honestly try to achieve that even if we honestly fail.
You're not alone in this belief. I think 95% of Christisdom believes this. Personally I don't. Only through trying to know and love the Son will we keep His commandments; whereas the only reason we keep His commandments is simply because of the Son.
To: 1000 silverlings; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
I don't understand your response. The source is Jewish commentary. Many Jews no longer read the Torah, but rabbis do. They can confirm that whatI say is true I don't dispute that what you are saying is what rabbinical Judaism says. I dispute that it is Jewish. The belief in the pre-existence of the souls is a pagan (Greek and Persian) belief that was added to Pharisaical Judaism, and survives to this day in its direct offshoot, rabbinical Judaism and, apparently, in some corners of various Protestant sects as well.
This is what Jewish Encyclopedia has to say about this:
"It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence."
This belief is, therefore, not "intrinsically" Jewish but pagan. Thus, the JE continues:
"This Platonic doctrine of the preexistence of the soul ... is taught also by the Rabbis, who spoke of a storehouse of the souls in the seventh heaven."
Clearly, then, modern Judaism is a mixture of old Judaism and (Greek, Persian) pagan beliefs.
What fascinates me is that some Protestant groups will adhere to this type of (rabbinical) Judaism rather than to Christian beliefs which regardless whether based on traducianism or creationism agree that the soul does not pre-exist the body.
Rabbinical Judaism also says that the souls of the Gentiles are created by the demons.
"Some of the rabbinical writings represent the soul of Gentiles as having a very different origin from the souls of Jews: the latter as emanations from God; the former as the spawn of demons."
Do you believe that too? Are some Protestants unsure if they are Christians or Jews? Or do they consider themselves a little bit of both?
13,951
posted on
05/04/2007 10:10:45 AM PDT
by
kosta50
(Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
To: kosta50
Jacob had an additional soul
Which from archangel Michael he stole
This miraculous feat
Left Gentiles incomplete
Till at Pentecost they became whole.
To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan
Of course not. Nothing here denies sovereignty of God, denies original sin, and it follows the scriptural model to view God as Our Father. God is not the "Father" of all. Our Lord Jesus specifically told some that they were sons of the devil. Only those who are His sheep will hear His voice. It depends upon God's mercy to open our eyes to the truth.
Under your view grace becomes universal for which man makes a decision. The only difference in this view and Pelagius is that man "cooperates" with God. But some obviously cooperates more than others. Tsk, tsk.
Salvation - It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will. Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins. - New Advent
I will say, this view sounds very Protestant these days-or perhaps many Protestants sound very Catholic.
To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
I don’t know what kind of Christian you are, but Jesus is the true vine. As to where souls are and come from it’s not something that concerns me. I was pinged over here and gave an opinion from what I know.
13,954
posted on
05/04/2007 10:26:43 AM PDT
by
1000 silverlings
("The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." Andrew Jackson, President of U.S.)
To: fortheDeclaration
WELL AND ACCURATELY PUT. THX.
13,955
posted on
05/04/2007 10:29:06 AM PDT
by
Quix
(GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
To: annalex
The hierarchy in Scripture and as evidenced by Paul and his wanderings is a far, far, far, far, far
cry
with many tears . . .
from the horrid structure and practices in all large denominations, especially the RC edifice
13,956
posted on
05/04/2007 10:30:30 AM PDT
by
Quix
(GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
To: hosepipe
Well put.
Strongly agree.
Man’s VAINHOUSES.
13,957
posted on
05/04/2007 10:31:26 AM PDT
by
Quix
(GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; 1000 silverlings; blue-duncan
God is not the "Father" of all These are all Calvinist theories, in which I have no interest. I do what Christ and His apostles tell us. You are curious what is it, I'll tell you, but it looks like you can read NewAdvent for yourself. That is a good start.
To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; wmfights; blue-duncan; 1000 silverlings; P-Marlowe; ...
I would like to remind you that no Protestants killed Orthodox followers, but Rome did. Christians may speak bluntly, but we have never waged war on your faith.
Rome has waged war on us both, yet your hatred is so great for Justification by faith alone that you would side with those who killed Orthodox followers, (who believe in a works system of salvation, as you do), in attacking Christians.
These valid points have been illustrated on this and other threads, much to the surprise of most of the Protestants here.
But we can be assured...
"But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." -- Acts 11:9
13,959
posted on
05/04/2007 10:35:00 AM PDT
by
Dr. Eckleburg
("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
To: Quix
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