Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[marajade]

"Who shall determine that the Bible and the Pope differ?"

I realize this is a foreign concept to you, but the holy spirit. Which is seriously missing in the Catholic Church.

[Zuriel]

**When the names of all the Apostles are listed, Peter is always first.**

I see that as well. I don't agree with Uncle Chip's view that Paul 'overshadowed' Peter, if he is referring to leadership. I think Paul's work does speak for itself; he did labor more abundantly than the others.

Who was the first disciple/apostle (in the scriptures) to declare Jesus as the Christ? Andrew, Peter's brother. Who was second? Philip (speaking to Nathanael, "We have found him..."). And third? Nathanael (speaking to Jesus, "thou art the Son of God.."). Peter's similar exclamation comes sometime later, after the feeding of the five thousand.

The devils that were cast out in the presence of the disciples, also knew who Jesus was, acknowledging him as "the Son of God".

Peter was indeed given leadership roles. He was told to strengthen the brethern when he was converted (born again; Acts 2 pouring out of God's Spirit).

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven. He opened the door to the Jews in Acts 2:38; to the part Jew, part Gentile Samaritans in Acts 8; and to the Gentiles in Acts 10. The preaching of the Word, including repentance and water baptism in the name of JESUS for the remission of sins, and testifying of the Holy Ghost infilling, is the 'binding' of sin and 'loosing' of souls.

As far as a lineage of leaders following Peter; if they don't preach his Acts 2:38,39 conversion message, then they are preaching 'another Jesus'.

[Petronski]

3 Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth.

The vow of celibacy is voluntary.

You're a tired broken record.

[Petronski]

I realize this is a foreign concept to you, but the holy spirit.

How shall the Holy Spirit make this determination known to us?

[marajade]

"The vow of celibacy is voluntary."

Are there married priests in the RC Church?

[Petronski]

We are arguing about the leadership of the church right?

Nope. I am schooling you on the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church He founded, the Church you reject.

You are a church unto yourself and thus need no earthly leadership, so how this affects you in any way is baffling to the reader.

[adiaireton8]

That's why for 2,000 years the church has written various creeds -- to hold men's perception of God accountable to the word of God itself.

For the first 1500 years of Church history, there was no sense of 'sola scriptura'. 'Sola scriptura' is an historical novelty. So the notion that the purpose of the ecumenical creeds was to "hold men's perception of the God accountable to the word of God itself" is completely anachronistic. That was not the purpose of the creeds. The purpose of the creeds was to clarify and summarize the contents of the faith of the universal Church.

Do you really accept the contents of the creeds? Why? What authority do they have? How can you accept the authority of the creeds while rejecting the authority of those who formulated the creeds? Do you accept what the First Ecumenical Council (Nicea 325) says about the ordination of bishops? (Obviously not, since Reformed people reject bishops.) Then why do you accept the creed that came out of that council? How can you have it both ways, accepting the creeds of the councils, and rejecting everything else they say?

-A8

[marajade]

"How shall the Holy Spirit make this determination known to us?"

By the reading of His Word. Again, I know, a foreign concept to you. As once believed by the Catholic Church that only priests had the right to read his word.

Darn that Martin Luther anyway.

[Petronski]

Are there married priests in the RC Church?

Converts from other Churches (Anglicans as I recall) have remained married upon reception of Catholic Holy Orders.

[marajade]

"I am schooling you on the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church He founded, the Church you reject."

Where is that in the Bible, you know, other than that Peter is the rock, which to me doesn't mean the Roman Catholic Church. Peter was a Jew.

[Petronski]

By the reading of His Word.

The Holy Spirit shall come to us and read His Word?

Darn that Martin Luther anyway....deleting entire books from his version of the Bible. I agree with you, it's shameful.

[marajade]

"You are a church unto yourself and thus need no earthly leadership, so how this affects you in any way is baffling to the reader."

You've finally got it! No earthly leadership. The leader of my Church is JC.

[Petronski]

Where is that in the Bible?

It's in the Gospel.

Peter was a Jew, but he converted to Christianity, or are you claiming Peter did not have faith in Christ?

[adiaireton8]

I realize this is a foreign concept to you, but the holy spirit.

How do you know that you have the Holy Spirit?

-A8

[marajade]

"Converts from other Churches (Anglicans as I recall) have remained married upon reception of Catholic Holy Orders."

And does that make any sense at all? I'd be considered a convert and I could remain married and a priest, but if I was baptized in the Church then I couldn't?

[marajade]

Luther got it right and his focus was on JC.

[Petronski]

Your church is whatever you say it is, errors and all. You are a church unto yourself.

Your writings here, by the way, feature dreadful spelling, punctuation and grammar, indicating to me that you are not very well read or educated. Who are you to claim perfect interpretation of Scripture?

[Zuriel]

Throwing gasoline on a fire? Has the price gone down that much?

[marajade]

At the time JC said that to Peter, Peter was a Jew.

[marajade]

How do you know I don't. Because I'm not a Catholic?