Posted on 10/21/2006 4:52:03 AM PDT by NYer
Thanks.
Blessed I sensed your meaning accurately.
I agree, of course.
The nature of your comments throughout this thread suggests to me that you are much more interested in defending your own position than in engaging in an honest and respectful pursuit of truth. For that reason, I'm not going to engage in this discussion with you. There are preconditions for rational discourse, and they include a sincere desire for truth (rather than pushing one's ideology no matter what the facts), and a certain level of respect for one's interlocutor. Unfortunately, in my opinion, on this thread at least, and with me in particular, you have not met those conditions. If in the future I detect a different attitude, I'll be glad to dialogue with you.
-A8
(1) why did Jesus give His Apostles the authority to bind and loose and forgive and retain sins, and to speak in His name such that whoever listens to them listens to Him, and whoever rejects them rejects Him? (Luke 10:6; 1 John 4:6) And
(2) why do you consider the writings of the Apostles (i.e. the NT) authoritative? And
(3) why are the Twelve Apostles the foundation stones of the Church (Rev 21:14) and why will they "sit upon twelve thrones" (Matt 19:28; Luke 22:30)?
-A8
NOT SO. I can easily grant that was the purpose once upon a time. It has failed miserably repeatedly over the centuries. History is full of such examples. It failed. Many's organizations and systems can ONLY FAIL. It is their nature.
Christ did not send us an organization to dwell within us but HIS SPIRIT. And He did not send us an organization to dwell with--BUT HIMSELF ALONE are we to dwell within AS THE TABERNACLES with us, in us.
Were I to judge the organization according to the criteria mentioned in the above post . . . I would have to flunk it utterly. It has failed far more centuries, decades, years, months, weeks, days than it has succeeded. I'm skeptical that it has succeeded since BEFORE IT'S FOUNDING.
Had it succeeded, we'd see more congruence between it and Scripture as well as between it and the predicted Scriptural results of walking intimately with Christ. We see neither. For many decades and centuries we observed THE OPPOSITE.
According to the criteria listed, the leaders and whole organization need to be fired and replaced wholesale. They have repeatedly failed and failed utterly.
That is partly why so many millions of former Romans in South America are leaving the Roman group in droves and joining Charismatic groups WHERE THE OBVIOUS AND REDEMPTIVE POWER OF GOD IS ROUTINELY DEMONSTRATED--and more miraculously, where a much higher percentage of folks are truly walking in Christ's Love to a much greater degree.
. . .
One does not have to choose between trusting the Magisterium and trusting the Word of God.
WRONG.
FOR THAT TO BE TRUE, they would have to be essentially identical. They are not. They have not been near identical since well before the founding of the organization.
And, when ANYTHING DIFFERS from THE WORD OF GOD, guess which I shall always, hopefully, choose! Otherwise does NOT help in life and certainly does NOT help deepen one's life IN GOD.
Only by trusting the Magisterium can we trust that we have the Word of God. The two necessarily go together.
WRONG.
NO INTERLOPPER CAN SUCCESSFULLY HORN IN ON THE PRIORITY OF GOD'S WORD. Nothing. What arrogance for any organization and/or group of individuals to PRESUME so. Talk about the mother of all presumptions!
CHRIST IS THE LIVING WORD, for sure. His Indwelling Spirit is to lead each individual into all truth . . . more or less without any destructive meddling by ANYONE OR ANYTHING ELSE.
GOD IS NOT THE LEAST BIT INTERESTED in having an organization between HIM AND ANY INDIVIDUAL in the SPIRITUAL MARITAL BED. Hint. God is not an idiot.
BTW, I consider the founding of the Roman organization to have been some 100-300 years or so--probably the 300 mark--AFTER CHRIST, PAUL and the lot of them. Nothing else is historically accurate, to me.
So let me ask you a question: If you lived back during the time of the Apostles, would you have been under their authority or not?
No, I would have been under Christ's authority then just as I am now. However, it would have been a moot point because the apostles, Stephen, Paul, Barnabas, Timothy and such were filled by the Holy Spirit - so we would have been of one mind.
. . .
It's about the power of God. I surrender absolutely to God, i.e. to Him alone.
= = =
Dear Angel-Gal, I agree--certainly essentially . . . but I think I want to tease out the authority part a little bit. I might slightly disagree.
I don't have any trouble with God 'ordained' authority in some sense . . . to teach, preach, minister to the widows and orphans etc . . .
BUT NOT TO USURP.
And, it appears that NO EARTHLY AUTHORITY HAS HAD THE POWER TO RESIST USURPING God's authority once the organization gets up and running for any length of time. So, then, God lifts the anointing and usually the authority rather wholesale as well.
I think that's what we've seen with a lot of TV evangelists . . . God granted unusual authority for Holy Spirit to flow through them and bless other people and pretty soon, THEY ACTED AND FELT LIKE *THEY* WERE DOING IT. And the crash came resoundingly. Their flesh and degree of cleansed purity, refiner's fired purity was not up to the task. Their pride scuttled them wholesale. That's been true from the days of the pharisees to this.
The net effect is, I think, your position, A-G. GOD AND GOD ALONE. Holy Spirit was not sent to be our butler; our secretary; our side-kick; our pet. HE'S THE BOSS.
Does that mean that you are reneging on our joint pursuit of the real truth regarding that elusive 25 Year Petrine Bishopric in Rome, with Cricifixion under Nero notwithstanding ---- or was that just more rhetoric from you??
Come on now, quit fooling around, and quit stalling. Post those sacred words from "the Fathers" without further delay.
what IS authority, anyway?
Isn't it the right, ability, sanction to exercise POWER to take action . . . particularly action in behalf of some higher POWER?
On that score . . . God removes HIS ANOINTING, HIS POWER whenever the flesh begins to usurp--especially very significantly.
Trouble is, organizations have their own momentum and their own power and certainly their own SENSE OF POWERFULNESS. And they 'soldier on' as the three stooges PRESUMING that God's power is still under and behind them when HE LEFT THE BAND a long time ago.
INDEED. You make many excellent valid points.
Shockingly, I agree with all of them. Truly a miraculous event! LOL.
WHAT A GRAND and admirable undertaking!
Am eager to see your results!
I love your humor.
LUB, AS WELL.
There are preconditions for rational discourse, and they include a sincere desire for truth (rather than pushing one's ideology no matter what the facts), and a certain level of respect for one's interlocutor.
= = = =
I hope ALL OUR mirrors are in working order in such pursuits.
UHHHHH,
JESUS GAVE ALL BELIEVERS such authority. He made that clear. Paul made that clear.
I have lived it out and found it true around the world.
Man's systems and organizations can only fail
not Many's . . . Many got cement shoes in Chicago and dumped in the lake.
Thank You --- it is a huge undertaking and I will need all the divine help I can get, and from "the Fathers", of course.
Help from The Fathers?
HOGWASH . . . as you know . . .
but help FROM THE SPIRIT, YES!
LUB,
Assertions do not make it so. Please name one false Catholic dogma. Just one. (We already tried this with your claim that the Catholic Church had flipflopped on dogma, and you couldn't come up with a single example.)
-A8
Will you be writing some books and adding them to the NT canon shortly, since you have the same authority as the Apostles?
-A8
Assertions do not make it so. Please name one false Catholic dogma. Just one. (We already tried this with your claim that the Catholic Church had flipflopped on dogma, and you couldn't come up with a single example.)
= = =
No. That's not accurate. I chose not to. Inability was not the issue. I left it for others to bother with, if they chose. I don't need to prove the history to myself, or others. I'm quite confident about it.
It's not the type of water gun fight I enjoy, at all, such detailed exchanges on such historical facts.
I think my cheekiness could easily . . .
But I think I'll mostly refrain . . .
HOLY SPIRIT is writing HIS living epistle with me day by day--As Paul noted. I will leave the task to Him.
Harley, if you care to bother . . . not my cup of tea, if I can avoid it.
You are welcome, of course, too! LOL.
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