Posted on 10/21/2006 4:52:03 AM PDT by NYer
Am at the college, near finished with lunch . . . may be this evening or later before I get to this long post . . . except to say . . .
Orthodoxy is determined by God. He is the best defender, protector etc. of HIS WORD. His WORD is orthodoxy whether Scripture or via Holy Spirit. Doesn't take an edict of a pontifical leader of tradition nor a vote of an eccleastical club. Takes obedience and truly seeking GOD AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS from the heart with actions accordingly.
Laity are called, challenged, exhorted, led to hear God moment by moment; praying always . . . as are all humans . . . and to walk in the personally delivered Biblical orthodoxy God communicates to each individual in their individual dialogue. ONE mediator between God and man--JESUS THE CHRIST. Period. THAT'S the BIBLICAL model of orthodoxy.
THROUGHOUT HISTORY--ESPECIALLY IN THE !MORE! INSTITUTIONAL OLD TESTAMENT . . . abuses of authority carried on long enough or serious enough . . . resulted in a jerking of the anointing and eventually of the authority. Usually the authority went with the anointing to some degree.
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Quix: AND, HE TOOK THEM OUT OR REMOVED THE ANOINTING from every remotely long line of them sooner or later
A8: And how do you know this? This is the sort of deism we see in Mormonism.
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UTTER HOGWASH. Nothing to do with Mormonism. Just Biblical fact. Show me ONE Biblical line of succession of authority that was NOT broken, removed by God Almighty in the Old Testament. I can't recall one.
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Quix: I'm not talking about SECULAR POLITICAL authorities.
A8: Your mentioning of Hitler is what suggested to me that you *were* also talking about secular political authorities.
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Mangling my post and it's context are likely to persistently result in wrong conclusions. I'd have thought that principles of logic would have affirmed that fact.
The point was that prior to Hitler, the most horrid abuses of humanity had been as likely as not at the hands of RELIGIOUS LEADERS--at least in European, Western cultures.
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A8: The gifts and calling are irrevocable. If we fall away from the faith, we do not have to be re-baptized when we return. Why? Because baptism (like confirmation and ordination) leaves an indelible character in the soul.
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I think that's mixing apples and cacti at some point. The irrevocable nature of gifts and callings does not necessarily have anything to do with whether the anointing or the authority remain with the 'gifted' one. Re-baptism etc. gets into a whole 'nother order of issue not central to this thread.
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A8: Please name one 'flipflop' in Catholic *dogma*. Just one.
Quix: I think eggregious indulgences would be one. Papal philandering outside of marriage could be construed as another. ... There were variouis pollitical land grabs at various points in history that were not at all Christ-like--or even remotely moral.
None of those are Catholic dogma.
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Ahhhhhhhhhhh, but Roman dogma was characteristically used to justify such at the time . . . in one form or another. The Roman hierarchy is still guilty as charged and the so called saintly dogma is still as tainted as the rest of the whole mess.
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Guess I got thru the list after all.
Though I sometimes do fall into the pit of prissy-ness, I try hard to beg the question much more, instead.
LOL.
You are the one who appeared to claim that Sullivan's From Apostles to Bishops was nihil obstated. I don't have a copy of the book, but you can just look in the front cover to see if the nihil obstat is there or not. I suspect that his book is not nihil obstated.
-A8
Sadly, even far too many Protestant groups AND EVEN CHARISMATIC/PENTECOSTAL GROUPS who should well know better . . . fail to follow the I Cor 14 model for congregational life and activity.
And, thankfully, some Roman groups do, at least here and there and occasionally.
Great points. Thanks.
LOL LOL INDEED.
Great to see you here.
I think the historical facts stand quite well enough on their own regardless.
Woop woop.
Cuts no extra ice with me.
The New Testament exhorts congregations to select the lowly wise old codgers to decide matters. Works for me.
I like obeying and following Scripture. Tends to lead to Christ-like-ness.
Organizational followings tend to lead to fossilization and a host of RELIGIOUS evils.
I'm sure that foggie vs fogie is in the eye and perspective of the beholder . . . and probably in the ORGANIZATIONAL DOGMA of the beholder, too.
LOL.
There is no credible place outside of Scripture that shows that Peter's Roman Bishopric was 25 years either. That's the point. Where is your first century proof?
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INDEED.
And certainly insufficient anything to build such an incredibly granitized, fossilized, tyrannical RELIGIOUS STRUCTURE and organization/institution of so much abusiveness to so many individuals over so many centuries!
No place in Scripture is there anything that shows that Peter's Roman bishopric was not 25 years. And absence of additional evidence is not a witness against them; that's the fallacy of the argument from silence.
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SOUNDS LIKE THE INSTITUTIONAL STANDARD IS:
"THEIR arguments from silence are evil and heretical and nonsense. While mine are orthodox, righteous and wonderful."
There are two worldviews:
2. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
The second is more typical of the historical sciences, e.g. evolution, anthropology, archeology and Egyptology.
And of course the same two worldviews apply to theology. Again, I go with #1.
And why would you suspect that?
Do any of his writings appear in any Catholic Encyclopedia that you know of?
No one disagrees with that, and so it is unhelpful because it does not tell us how to access what God is saying.
His WORD is orthodoxy whether Scripture or via Holy Spirit.
Again, I think we all agree with that statement. The problem, however, as I have pointed out a number of times now, is this; whose interpretation of Scripture is authoritative, and who has the Holy Spirit? There are 20,000+ sects that each claim to have the correct interpretation and the Holy Spirit. How do we determine which is right? It does not do any good to reply: Go to the Word and listen to the Spirit. That is exactly what we are trying to determine: which interpretation of the Word is correct and what the Spirit is saying?
Laity are called, challenged, exhorted, led to hear God moment by moment; praying always . . . as are all humans . .
Catholics agree.
. and to walk in the personally delivered Biblical orthodoxy God communicates to each individual in their individual dialogue. ONE mediator between God and man--JESUS THE CHRIST. Period. THAT'S the BIBLICAL model of orthodoxy.
Even Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans would disagree with your rejection of the role of Church leaders (deacons, presbyters, elders). They keep watch over our souls (Heb 13:17), and in that way are "mediators" of God's grace to us. That in no way contradicts the uniqueness of Christ's sole mediatory role as taught by Paul in 1 Tim 2:5.
THROUGHOUT HISTORY--ESPECIALLY IN THE !MORE! INSTITUTIONAL OLD TESTAMENT . . . abuses of authority carried on long enough or serious enough . . . resulted in a jerking of the anointing and eventually of the authority. Usually the authority went with the anointing to some degree.
But Christ has promised that this will never happen to His Church. He has and He will continue to lead her into all truth, to ensure that the gates of hell do not over her, and that He will be with her to the end of the age. Even when certain leaders abuse their authority and tarnish the Church, yet Christ will not leave her. Nor does the gift given in ordination leave. To deny that is to make the mistake of the Donatist heresy.
Quix: AND, HE TOOK THEM OUT OR REMOVED THE ANOINTING from every remotely long line of them sooner or later
A8: And how do you know this? This is the sort of deism we see in Mormonism.
Quix: UTTER HOGWASH. Nothing to do with Mormonism.
The deism that assumes Christ abandoned His Church, only to restore it at some later time, is found both in Mormonism and in claims such as yours that Christ "lifted" or "removed" His anointing from the Church.
Just Biblical fact.
The Bible never shows Christ lifting His anointing from the Church.
Show me ONE Biblical line of succession of authority that was NOT broken, removed by God Almighty in the Old Testament. I can't recall one.
The line established by the incarnate Christ, and sanctified by the Holy Spirit sent by Christ, will never be destroyed. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
I think that's mixing apples and cacti at some point. The irrevocable nature of gifts and callings does not necessarily have anything to do with whether the anointing or the authority remain with the 'gifted' one.
It has everything to do with it. The gift given in sacramental ordination is a divine gift. Like baptism, it can never be repeated, because it can never be removed.
Re-baptism etc. gets into a whole 'nother order of issue not central to this thread.
It is central to the Donatism that you are proposing. The very same reason why we cannot be re-baptised is the very same reason why ordination cannot be repeated; it is indelibile and irrevocable.
A8: Please name one 'flipflop' in Catholic *dogma*. Just one.
Quix: I think eggregious indulgences would be one. Papal philandering outside of marriage could be construed as another. ... There were variouis pollitical land grabs at various points in history that were not at all Christ-like--or even remotely moral.
A8: None of those are Catholic dogma.
Quix: Ahhhhhhhhhhh, but Roman dogma was characteristically used to justify such at the time . . . in one form or another. The Roman hierarchy is still guilty as charged and the so called saintly dogma is still as tainted as the rest of the whole mess.
Whether or not any Roman dogma was used to justify some error is irrelevant to whether or not the Catholic Church has ever "flipflopped" on a matter of *dogma*. It has never done so, and never will.
-A8
Well, there are good Presbyterians and then there are....
The #2s protest that their field does not allow for evidence without absence because it is a quantization of a continuum - pieces of evidence here and there from which they derive a continuum (connect the dots).
My #1 worldview is reflected in my personal epistemology by ranking the opinions of experts as 11th of 12.
I suspect you have a rather low value for the opinions of experts as well, Quix.
As I have pointed out above, the precise length of Peter's bishopric in Rome is irrelevant to the legitimacy of the Catholic Church. Almost all scholars (Protestants included) agree that Peter was in Rome and that he was martyred in Rome. Archaeologists in the 1940s discovered what appears to be the tomb of Peter under the foundation of Old St. Peter's cathedral in the Vatican. The ancient graffiti said, "Peter is here". The skeleton inside is missing its feet, as if the feet were chopped off. That would make sense, since presumably the easiest way to remove from a cross the body of a man crucified upside down would be to chop off his feet.
-A8
It looks like presbyterians were in Rome before those popes were. If they don't return to the faith of their presbyterian patriarchs, they should be evicted from their high horses. And they have the audacity to call Presbyterians "separated brethren". :)
Was Mark Peter's son?
Seems to me as I have been following this thread that there's a whole lot of expert-ing going on around here, regardless of where it falls in---what's that word?---epistemology.
Lots of big words, too.
Lots of long posts, and words in bold and caps and colors, too. (which impedes and impairs my reading abilities).
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