Peter & Succession (Understanding the Church Today)

Ignatius Insight ^ | 2005 | Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[Quix]

Have a blessed week.

I don't think I have any further explanation to offer that has any chance of being that helpful.

Perhaps others can do better than I.

[adiaireton8]

Have you been baptized in water? If so, were you the one who administered the baptism (in the name of the "Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit") or did someone else do it?

Please don't be evasive and say "God did it". You know what I'm asking.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

God was in the habit of REMOVING ecclesial hierarchy throughout Scripture.

Does He need your help today?

-A8

[Quix]

Am well acquainted with LDS doctrine.

It's outrageously unfitting to equate their doctrine with my own.

. . . regardless of motive . . . imho.

[adiaireton8]

but I think we can all start at the fact that NONE of us has it all right. Jesus was the only man who ever lived on this earth that had it "right". No person, no church, no single interpretation is "right".

Are those three sentences "right"?

-A8

[proud_2_B_texasgal]

That's why I asked for forgiveness if I were wrong. It is my perception ..

[Quix]

Does He need your help today?
= = =

WATCH-IT, please.

I find that assaultive and insulting.

[adiaireton8]

Any human person is subjective, fallible, and going to interpret differently from the next.

There goes the NT, written by "subjective, fallible" men. If you reject human leadership, you have rejected the Apostles. And if you reject the Apostles, you reject the NT. And if you reject the NT, then how do you know anything about Jesus?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

And He's getting ready to do it wholesale big time before too many more months/years have passed.

Apparently, you have regained your anointing.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Great, show me 'sola scriptura' in early Church history.

-A8

[Quix]

There are plenty of anointed sources who'd likely say some such. Doesn't really take any anointing to realize that.

[adiaireton8]

Ecclesial deism is ecclesial deism.

-A8

[proud_2_B_texasgal]

Are those three sentences "right"?

That question just about settled your motives for me .. Have a blessed evening!

[proud_2_B_texasgal]

There goes the NT, written by "subjective, fallible" men. Don't put my quotes into sentences I never said. Good bye.

[adiaireton8]

I'm not trying to be insulting. But just because God does something does not justify us doing it. Therefore, even if God removes people from hierarchical positions, that does not justify our rebelling against legitimate divinely appointed authority.

-A8

[adiaireton8]

If you want to say that nobody has it right, but want to make an exception for your own comments, then you have a serious problem, i.e. a contradiction.

-A8

[Cvengr]

Do you think all the millions of Mormons are lying when they say that they are seeking God and concluding that God wants them to be Mormons???

Let's keep priority first with our Lord. If a Mormon denies the Son, then the Father is not in him. Read 1John 2 (later half of the chapter is pertinent).

I've worked with many Mormons and they frequently have impecable morality. But morality is not to be confused with salvation. KOSMOS, or the World, is a system of making order out of chaos. There are many successful organizers in the world who have learned the social skills well prior to more technical skill and are very productive in society. Morality simply abides by legalism with respect of the will, marriage, family, and governments of others. Those are all divinely established institutions for believer and unbeliever alike. One can be very well meaning, moral, productive, yet not have a relationship with God. They might also have experienced supernatural phenomenon, that doesn't mean they have a spirit filled life with the Living God.

The Mormons I've met are very good people wrt human standards of morality, and where they practice false doctrine, I don't think they intend to deceive, so I wouldn't describe them as liars, but I don't find the same spirit filled life from the Holy Spirit in them. And how do I discern this? Again by the Holy Spirit, by faith, by continuous study of doctrine (advanced faith) and having that faith continually running through my thought processes as I continue to walk in Him.

Note that in these Scriptures incredibly valuable insight is available regarding the different persons of the Trinity, again one God, revealed in three different persons. That revelation provides far more than simply relating a few thoughts. It's an genius method of instruction and providing a living relationship between God and man all consistent with His plan and method of having relationship with us.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Well said. But that Scripture doesn't sound very Calvinistic, to me.

Faith in Christ by the preaching of the word and the indwelling Holy Spirit is the heart of the Gospel.

And all to whom God gives eyes to see and ears to hear and a new heart will see and hear and understand. Not one sheep lost.

"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:4-7

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

"Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:

And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?

He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:15-20

[adiaireton8]

If a Mormon denies the Son, then the Father is not in him. Read 1John 2 (later half of the chapter is pertinent).

But the Mormons also read 1 John 2; they do not think their beliefs contradict 1 John 2. So, how do we determine whose interpretation is correct? If we just propose that both sides seek God, each side gets the 'burning in the bosom' in favor of his own interpretation.

And how do I discern this? Again by the Holy Spirit, by faith, by continuous study of doctrine (advanced faith) and having that faith continually running through my thought processes as I continue to walk in Him.

Of course, the Mormons say exactly the same thing. So this resolves nothing.

Any wholly subjective method of resolving theological disagreements is worthless. It is a recipe for complete fragmentation of the Church.

-A8

[Dr. Eckleburg]

SOLA SCRIPTURA
by A.A. Hodge

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, Having Been Given By Inspiration of God, Are the All-Sufficient and Only Rule of Faith and Practice, and Judge of Controversies.

1. What is meant by saying that the Scriptures are the only infallible rule of faith and practice?

Whatever God teaches or commands is of sovereign authority. Whatever conveys to us an infallible knowledge of his teachings and commands is an infallible rule. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the only organs through which, during the present dispensation, God conveys to us a knowledge of his will about what we are to believe concerning himself, and what duties he requires of us...