Posted on 08/08/2006 12:04:25 PM PDT by NYer
>>Truly sad. Do you feel better about yourself, politicallyincarrect, that you can make such aside comments to another Christian but you can't back them up when discussing a theological topic with Catholics?? <<
Actually, I'm in distress as I discuss these issues... If it didn't make any difference what you believed... I could care less... The point is that you and others have been given the opportunity to see the fallacy of many of the RCC doctrines and practices and yet there seems to be the attitude that "this is what the RCC says, and I'm not going to budge"... Certainly, I can't read your minds, but I can read your posts...
>>If you have the gumption to continue our conversation without bailing out over false sensitivities (an ironic thing, given your screen name...), you know where to find me...<<
"Gumption"... "Bailing out"... "sensitivities"... "You know where to find me.." Are we "projecting" again? These are not the tactics of a Bible scholar... These are the tactics of a schoolyard bully... You won't mind if I tell you that I'm not the least bit impressed, will you?
>>As to ladyinred, it is a shame that you have to be cast into the middle of such polemics from a fellow Christian. God bless you and your search for the truth.<<
Once again arrogance, pride, and a condescending attitude is being demonstrated on your part... I'm sure that ladyinred is well able to sift through the rubble of what's being said and find the nuggets.... Without your "help"...
Thank you for posting two pages of boilerplate from "Refuting Sola Fide 101". You could have saved a lot of JimRob's bandwidth by simply posting:
I have no rebuttal for your valid accusation that Campion's"faith without works is dead faith with no power to save. I didn't make that up, it's a verbatim quote from the Epistle of James".
was a bald-faced lie -- and a damnable, self-serving distortion of Scripture.
So, go read http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm instead.
~~~~~~~
See how easy (and truthful) that was?
I came to this thread hoping for a few moments of fellowship with fellow Christians who also happened to be Catholic, and who had insight into the latest directions within Catholicsm. Instead, what I found was an ambush by trolls who are still tilting at windmills dated October 31, 1513...
I was appalled to learn that there are anti-Catholic threads on FR. Now, I will not be surprised should I encounter one.
I wasted far too much time, trying to be thoughtful, civil and open with you today; trust me: it will not happen again.
Thank you, TXnMA, for the ping and for your post to the truth. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
As John says, His commandments are not burdensome.
This same commandment we had from the beginning (as John reiterates), which single commandment Jesus made very clear to all who are willing to receive the Truth:
Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him,
“Which is the first commandment of all?”Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is:
‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
This is the first commandment.
And the second, like it, is this:
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12:28-31
Ravi Zacharias said the other day (click here and go about 6:30 into the realplayer broadcast), that this "greatest command" is indeed One Command: 1a) and 1b)! (:
He added that what Jesus was in essence teaching was,
"If you know Me, and you love your neighbor, all the other 613 [Rabbinical Laws] emerge from those two [Commands of God]."
Again, quoting John, "How can a man say he loves God who is unseen,
if he loves not his brother whom he can see?"
The unseen love is first, and all love that is seen flows from this,
being the manifestation of the first, and its proof. Amen.
In other words the "WORK" is this: LOVE.
We must learn to love as Jesus did,
and this we do by believing (loving) His Word and walking in (loving) His Spirit. Amen.
Even if such things are poured out on the ground like water and no man's thirst is quenched by them in refusing to drink, they are yet an acceptable, costly sacrifice unto God. Continue in them!
I challenge you to respond with Scriptural opposition to what I've just said... If you think that some exists...
You are making the false presumption that everything that Christians believed and did in the first century was recorded in the Bible. The Bible is a collection of letters to various communities, communities who had particular problems. The Bible is NOT a systematic catechism (chapter one, faith; chapter two, salvation; etc). There are a number of issues within the life of the Church that are either not mentioned or merely implied by Scriptures. Christian practice of the first century CLEARLY indicates a belief in the efficiency of prayers for the sake of dead people, a practice that goes back AT LEAST 150 years BEFORE Christ, as indicated in 2 Maccabees.
Christ established a Church for the purpose of preaching and teaching, the pillar and foundation of the truth. This same Church WROTE the NT Scriptures...Since it is guided by the Holy Spirit, what it teaches dogmatically is to be held as truly from God.
Regards
You're welcome. Have a blessed Sunday.
Regards
You are merely confirming what I already had assumed. Have you considered reading the writings of the first Christians? Those closest chronologically to Christ and the Apostles? Wouldn't you think they'd have gotten it right? Perhaps if you would read St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Justin the Martyr, St. Irenaeus, the Didache, St. Clement of Rome, and so forth, writings of the first 200 years, I sincerely think you would have a better handle on what was meant by the teachings of the Apostles, rather than men from 1600 who had ulterior motives for inventing their own theological ideas so as to separate from the Catholic Church.
I challenge YOU to read these writings and see what THEY believed regarding faith/works and so forth. While not inerrant, taken as a whole, it is difficult to ignore their unity of thought on such issues.
I wrote: while mine is based on the Tradition passed down from 2000 years, <<
You replied: That is obvious... :-)
I will take that as a compliment. The Scripture clearly tells us that we are to hold onto the Traditions taught to us by the Apostles, not make up our own. In the later writings, such as Peter, John, Jude and the Pastorals, there is an overwhelming sense that the Apostles clearly wanted to ensure that this deposit of teachings given was to be passed on without change. Is Christianity a revealed religion, or a philosophy of the culture we live in at the time?
Advantage? I think not considering the real source of your "traditions"...
What is the source of my "traditions"? What "traditions" are you speaking of? Before I consider this another attack, I will await your response...
All truth is found in the Bible alone...
LOL! No, it's not. The Bible never mentions anything about the Mayan Indians. Does this mean that they didn't exist? In the exact same way, if the Church records at a later date that Mary is truly the Mother of God - rather than being explicitly in Scriptures, does this mean it is not so? Again, everything that Christians practiced or believed is not recorded in Scriptures. Scripture is only PART of the Word of God presented to mankind.
Any man made interpretations of what the Apostles believed and practiced is invalid if it is not backed up by Scripture...
I believe that a "tradition" cannot go AGAINST what is found in Scripture. Otherwise, it is not a valid tradition. Jesus did not condemn ALL traditions, only those that separated man from God. He also followed traditions.
I have problems with people who tell me that faith alone saves, when clearly, in James 2, it tells us EXPLICITLY that it does NOT save by itself. These same people then have the audacity to make accusations against the Church that WE don't follow Scriptures! Thus, you are making yourself to be a hypocrite, from my point of view. Being saved for heaven by Faith alone is NOT found in Scriptures, thus, you follow a man-made tradition. If you don't believe me, give me some examples of the Church following such beliefs the first 1500 years before Luther's invention...
Error is error no matter how many times it is believed, taught, or practiced...
Outside the pillar and foundation of the truth, I would agree with that.
Regards
Look in the mirror, brother. You might find a 2 x 4 there in your eye...
Thanks for your hypocritical analysis. But if you can't prove Sola Fide from Scripture, then just drop the drama. I am not interested in trading such "pleasantries" with one who cannot defend their point of view. James 2 EXPLICITLY says we are not saved by faith alone. Move on.
What on earth are you talking about? By defending the Catholic point of view, we are trolls? Oh brother...
I came to this thread hoping for a few moments of fellowship with fellow Christians who also happened to be Catholic, and who had insight into the latest directions within Catholicsm. Instead, what I found was an ambush by trolls who are still tilting at windmills dated October 31, 1513...
No you didn't. When? You posted ONE previous post on this thread, "correcting" mine and Campion's citations of Scriptures because you were "uncomfortable". When did you ask any of us about the "insight into the latest directions within Catholicism"? All you did was come here, try to give us your point of view on works and faith. That is what this forum is for. And now you come back with this "appalled" "ambushed" feeling??? Truthfully, why exactly did you post, then?
NYer was correct to post the Scriptures directly here. You probably wouldn't have gone to the link she posted. But the verses are now part of this thread and clearly, for all to see, they destroy the idea that one is saved by faith without works of love.
I wasted far too much time, trying to be thoughtful, civil and open with you today; trust me: it will not happen again.
This seems to be the direction Protestant apologists on this thread are taking lately. Trying to win the sympathy vote, I suppose. Make wild accusations that Catholics are "ambushing" posts and "tilting at windmills" and naturally, being "uncivil" and "unthoughtful". No one was uncivil to you and clearly, you didn't come here for open discussion, but to give us your OPINION that "faith alone is salvific". By defending what the Scriptures say, we are now trolls. Well, the Lord did say that we would be insulted and persecuted...
Regards
>>James 2 EXPLICITLY says we are not saved by faith alone.<<
What James says... Is that if our faith is genuine... It will produce good works. James 2:14, 19, 20. James was dispelling the notion that mere "profession" of faith saves.. "Even the demons believe that there is on God... Genuine faith is the "root" salvation, and good works are the "fruit" of salvation.
"For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
"I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galations 3:21
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law... for by the works of the law shall no man be justified." Galations 2:16
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
We are justified (declared righteous) by grace, through faith, on the merits of Christ's blood, and the proof is in His resurrection. The "evidence" that we've been saved and justified is the fruit that we produce, as James rightly points out...
Listen to what Christ said about "justification"...
Luke 18:9 "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
It is a humbling thing to rest completely and only on Christ and His sin atoning sacrifice made at the place called Calvary. It is our fallen nature that causes us to resist salvation as a free gift... Our sinful nature rebels against grace.. We want to be like Cain and offer something from our own hands.. Even when God has clearly said.. "Our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.."
"The wages of sin is death, but the FREE GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ the Lord." Romans 6:23
Now, go do the right thing, friend.
>>You are making the false presumption that everything that Christians believed and did in the first century was recorded in the Bible. <<
Is that "code" for, "The RCC has no Biblical authority for teaching that christians should "pray for the dead", or "pray to the dead"?
Here's a partial list of the "Church's" heretical teachings and practices during the dark ages.
http://home.att.net/~jackthompson/page178.htm
Again and again, you are incorrect. Saying it over and over will not MAKE it correct! Both James AND Paul AND Peter AND John AND Jesus say that love towards God and our neighbor MUST be added to our faith to enter heaven. I have given a number of verses that you have so far ignored. There are numerous verses that discuss this FACT of the Christian life. One must have faith AND works of love. Let’s re-visit James 2 for a moment…
James is giving real, pastoral application of the Christian life. A choice that even WE must face. He presents a hypothetical situation in James 2:1-5 of a rich man and a poor man entering into their assembly. He asks “What would you do if..?” to challenge the Christians. “Do I discriminate based on the wealth of another Christian?” “Shall I help this poor man without proper clothing or food?” Remember, later, James tells us that to NOT do something we know we should do is SINFUL… These questions confront the Christian who CLAIMS to have faith. James asks:
What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? And if a brother or sister be naked, and want daily food: And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit? So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself” James 2: 14-17
In the rhetorical question above, James asks “shall faith be able to save him?” the answer is “NO”. This is not an abstract question, brother. James is asking uncomfortable questions to us. We can’t just sit back on our laurels, saying we love God, while refusing to help men in need. Having faith does not mean one will answer “yes” to the needs of a fellow brother in need. James is crystal-clear about this ultimatum by saying “CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?” Obviously, this tells the reader that something MORE is needed to be saved.
Now, let’s look at your verses…
"For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of God, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
No doubt, MY WORK ALONE is worthless. But in Christ, I am raised to a supernatural level, as I am part of Christ. When He abides in me, it is US who does the good work. This is verified by the following verse:
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.” Eph 2:10
"I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galations 3:21
Again, no doubt. If I think I can earn my salvation, or if I am a Jew who thinks that external works and national relations to Abraham guarantees me salvation, that God OWES me, than I am wrong.
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law... for by the works of the law shall no man be justified." Galations 2:16
See above. No one is justified by trying to earn salvation. Those in Christ are working in love. The inner motivation is different.
We are justified (declared righteous) by grace, through faith, on the merits of Christ's blood, and the proof is in His resurrection. The "evidence" that we've been saved and justified is the fruit that we produce, as James rightly points out...
And without this, our faith is dead. Thus, love must be added to faith… You have yet to say anything that proves your point.
Listen to what Christ said about "justification"...
Luke 18:9 "To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: …
Look at verse 9, brother… TO THOSE CONFIDENT IN THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jesus makes the distinction between one who believes they are justified by does not love, looking down at others arrogantly – and those who are humble at heart, knowing that God does not owe them anything. Just as Paul says, Jesus teaches that life by a written code only breeds pride and arrogance as displayed by the Pharisees. God is pleased with one who loves from his heart, by the Spirit of God – seeking divine praise, not the praise of man.
It is a humbling thing to rest completely and only on Christ and His sin atoning sacrifice made at the place called Calvary. It is our fallen nature that causes us to resist salvation as a free gift... Our sinful nature rebels against grace.. We want to be like Cain and offer something from our own hands.. Even when God has clearly said.. "Our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.." You want to know what Jesus said about justification and righteousness? Look at Matthew 5-7. You’ll find your answer there. For example:
For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20
Or
Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 7:21
Now, go do the right thing, friend.
Thanks for your advice. I will continue trying to correct your errors and show others that Sola Fide is not a biblical theology...
Regards
No. But now that you mention it, you have touched on ANOTHER idea that is NOT FOUND in the Scriptures: Sola Scriptura. NOWHERE do I find anything about ALL Christian doctrine must be found in the pages of the Bible. An obvious example would be the Table of Contents. What books actually BELONG in the Bible???!!! Is there a verse that tells me that? If not, Sola Scriptura is another non-Biblical theology, a tradition of men that leads people away from the Word of God.
Regards
Actually, two of the names are correct. It was Bob Fishman who was on the show with Dale and myself.
Doug Gonzales
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