TULIP - Divine sovereignty, human responsibility (Southern Baptists and Calvinism)

Baptist Press ^ | Apr 4, 2006 | Daniel L. Akin

[jo kus]

I guess I am a Calvinist and didn't even know it.

Funny how God only saves Calvinists...Each and every one of them. So if I convert to Calvinism, I'd be saved?

Regards

[WKB]

Well I'll see you in Heaven ....
If you make it.

[jkl1122]

That verse in no way negates the teaching in James 5:19-20 and Galatians 5:4. Scripture is it's own best interpreter. You can't take one passage and say that it teaches one thing when there are other passages that absolutely teach something different. They all must be taken into view in order to discern what is being taught.

[WKB]

Well I'll see you in Heaven ....
If you make it.

[jkl1122]

I pray that I do make it to heaven, and I aim to live my life in such a way to end up there. I pray the same for you.

[jo kus]

Well I'll see you in Heaven .... If you make it.

I hope to see you there, as well...

Regards

[HeadOn]

"That I can somehow UNDO what Jesus has accomplished is ludicrous."

"It is. I never said that, though."

Ah, but you DID say it, in post #291:

"But one CAN return to the vomit of their former lives, nullifying the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for themselves..."

And, you asked for scriptures - read what WKB posted at #276.

[Rightly Biased]

for later

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I have a difficult time thinking that God teaches forgiveness over and over - but yet in Hebrews - if I interpret it as you do - it says God will not forgive such a falling away. I would take Paul's "impossible" in Hebrews to mean more of a literary device, an exaggerated exclamation - "how could he have done that? Impossible... I don't believe it".

I think you're missing the meaning of Hebrews 6. We're told that if a person could actually lose his salvation, then what real good did Christ's sacrifice accomplish? His atonement would be tentative and ongoing and eternally incomplete. The verses say that if a person could really lose his salvation, then win it back, then lose it again, etc., this would be like crucifying Christ over and over and over.

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Mat 18:21-22

Jesus tells us to forgive all men as long as we're alive. And why is that? Because we are the exact same sinners as those whom we forgive. The saved are no different than the reprobate, except that they have received the Holy Spirit. But all men are born sinners, and all die sinners. We're saved by His righteousness, and not our own.

The Reformed don't see salvation as necessarily "once saved, always saved" (which seems to put salvation into temporal terms, as "before" and "after"), but more like "if saved, saved."

God determines all things. God knows all things. If God knows and has determined that a person will spend eternity in Paradise, then that reality cannot be altered. It simply is a fact of creation.

Now, we don't know the destination of anyone, but we have a really good assurance of our own salvation when we read the Bible and understand what Christ did for us.

And what Christ did for us is finished. It has been accomplished already. Christ took upon Himself the punishment of every one of our sins. Every one of our sins has been paid for by the perfect atonement of His death. There is not one sin of Christ's sheep that has not been forgiven.

This fact does not make us complacent. Paul in Romans tells us that, in truth, this fact makes us stronger and more certain of our faith. We now understand that any goodness or strength in us is really the working of the Holy Spirit, sanctifying our walk homeward. We actually want to obey, whereas before we understood we wanted to disobey.

Evil is always present. Satan beguiles saints and sinners alike. But the knowledge of the Holy Spirit in our lives gives us a steady courage to persevere. God will not give us a temptation we cannot resist.

And miraculously, with these truths come energy and generosity and clarity and patience and joy, all as gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You've heard FReepers here be skeptical about your dismissal of our security. Know, Jo kus, that it is not a fool's pacifier. It is the sure and certain promise of God. Anyone who tells you otherwise simply wants to manipulate you.

Why not try to live a few days actually believing that Christ chose you from before the foundation of the world to be among His sheep, and that God sent His Son to earth to suffer and die and be resurrected as payment for every sin you have ever or will ever commit. Try living as if God loves you so much at this very minute that nothing you can do will separate you from Him because He will not permit it. ("My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -- John 10:29)

God does not want us weak or fearful. He wants us strong for the battles ahead, for His glory alone. His will prevails.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." -- Ephesians 1:3-14

[jo kus]

That I can somehow UNDO what Jesus has accomplished is ludicrous.

OK, I think I undestand the problem.

You are making the jump of logic that because Jesus died on the cross, it brings everyone to heaven. I never said that I can UNDO what Jesus accomplished on the cross. He redeemed ALL of mankind. But you are jumping to the conclusion that this means "HeadOn is saved". Jesus action merely enables one to become saved. By God's grace, you must apply Jesus action to your individual self. YOU must repent and believe. If you refuse to, you didn't UNDO ANYTHING that Christ did. You merely made in inefffective in your own personal salvation history.

Thus, I said "But one CAN return to the vomit of their former lives, nullifying the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for themselves". This is Scriptural, if you consider reading Heb 10:26-27

The Scripture presumes that a Christian is one of the elect, that he will persevere. But it also recognizes that in practical cases, people DO fall away. For example, consider 1 Cor 5 and the adulterous fellow. HE was a 'saved' Christian who was tossed out of the community. Did he return? We don't know. We just don't know who the final elect are - only God KNOWS without doubt. People can make the claim all day, everyday. But this has nothing to do with what might happen 10 years from now. Then what would YOU say? "He was never saved to begin with", or "HeadOne was never saved to begin with"?

Christ's work on the cross is done. Applying to us is NOT done.

Regards

[HeadOn]

Man, you are so thick. You really have no idea what I'm getting at, nor do you care, apparently. You keep talking about what I assume, and what I'm thinking, without understanding what I've told you.

I'm not making any jump of logic whatsoever. I'm also not posting any more after this one...

[jo kus]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Here is the quote in full (NKJV)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Heb 6:4-12

It is my opinion that Paul is using a literary device - that people "couldn't" fall away after tasting the sweetness of the Lord. In the bolded words above, I understand that he is telling his readers that he expects better of them - that his earlier language was a "manner of speaking". Paul seems more pragmatic in the latter verses when he talks about HOPE, expecting these communities to continue in faith - although he realizes that some individuals will not continue. Sinning grieviously IS like crucifying Christ over again - and thus, a cause for shame among Christians. THUS, don't sin!

We're saved by His righteousness, and not our own.

Does Jesus ever say that in the Gospels? We are saved on account of His actions, but will I or you be judged, or will Christ? It is not necessary to post verses on being judged for OUR actions...A judgment that will send some to heaven and others to hell. Christ's righteousness opens the gates of heaven to us. Christ's Spirit enables us to have "faith working in love". When a person cooperates (due to God's graces), is not this OUR (mine and Christ's) righteousness? Does not Scripture speak about OUR righteousness, or the righteousness of others? I don't see Jesus righteousness "covering" everyone else, and He certainly didn't say that.

God determines all things. God knows all things. If God knows and has determined that a person will spend eternity in Paradise, then that reality cannot be altered. It simply is a fact of creation. Now, we don't know the destination of anyone, but we have a really good assurance of our own salvation when we read the Bible and understand what Christ did for us.

I agree. What is speculation is whether God uses His foreknowledge of our actions to determine WHOM He will save. It is perfectly valid to hold either view, from Scriptures alone. My OPINION is that He does see our actions in time, coupled with the future Graces He would give. Otherwise, again, my opinion, is that then God would be randomly choosing whom to send to heaven - thus making the whole idea of rewards and punishment a moot point.

And what Christ did for us is finished. It has been accomplished already. Christ took upon Himself the punishment of every one of our sins. Every one of our sins has been paid for by the perfect atonement of His death. There is not one sin of Christ's sheep that has not been forgiven.

Christ died for the sin of ALL mankind. That much is as obvious as Adam's sin effected ALL of mankind. However, we agree that ALL men will not be saved. Thus, Christ's application of forgiveness is conditional. We must repent and believe, correct? Heathens are not forgiven of sin if they never ask God for forgiveness. In the end, the elect will be able to look back and see God's work in their lives. But for a human to make that claim today? How can a sin I haven't committed yet be forgiven? Christ's action makes this sin forgiveable - IF I ask for His forgiveness in the future (which He certainly will provide Grace to me so as to ask for this forgiveness).

This fact does not make us complacent. Paul in Romans tells us that, in truth, this fact makes us stronger and more certain of our faith. We now understand that any goodness or strength in us is really the working of the Holy Spirit, sanctifying our walk homeward. We actually want to obey, whereas before we understood we wanted to disobey. Evil is always present. Satan beguiles saints and sinners alike. But the knowledge of the Holy Spirit in our lives gives us a steady courage to persevere. God will not give us a temptation we cannot resist.

True, I agree. Christ's presence is made manifest by our actions of love. But while we are in the Spirit, united with Christ, these are OUR actions, as well. They are accounted to US as righteousness, just as Abraham and David. I don't see this as EITHER God does all or man does all. I understand that we play some part in this equation, as well. Otherwise, I have no responsibility for my actions.

You've heard FReepers here be skeptical about your dismissal of our security. Know, Jo kus, that it is not a fool's pacifier. It is the sure and certain promise of God. Anyone who tells you otherwise simply wants to manipulate you.

I disagree with their interpretations of "eternal life" and what that consists of. I do not believe it is a "plane ticket" to a vacation 30 years from now. Eternal life is NOW! Not something I have to wait for. It is Christ's abiding presence. In heaven, it will be more manifest and complete. But even NOW, TODAY, I am taking part imperfectly in "heaven" - if you define heaven as being in union with God...While alive, though, Scripture clearly notes that I can dispel this "eternal life" from me by willfully sinning. However, I think we both agree that this is unlikely to happen to those who truly commit themselves to Christ and maintain this course (pick up your cross DAILY). With this in mind, I agree, my hope in eternal heaven is relatively secure. But I would never say "absolutely". God is sovereign, not me.

Why not try to live a few days actually believing that Christ chose you from before the foundation of the world to be among His sheep, and that God sent His Son to earth to suffer and die and be resurrected as payment for every sin you have ever or will ever commit. Try living as if God loves you so much at this very minute that nothing you can do will separate you from Him because He will not permit it. ("My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -- John 10:29)

I appreciate your plea. We all desire to experience God within us. I am pretty certain (though not mathematically certain) that I am of the elect today. This is a great hope and joy to me. It is based on God's mercy and the Gospel given to us through the Church. And as long as I continue to obey the Commandments, I KNOW that the Spirit is within me enabling me to do that. Thus, my election "continues". I can't possibly know what is in God's mind - but He is giving me a good indication through my experience that I am of the elect. But as Paul says "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." I will continue to work out my salvation in fear and trembling - keeping in mind that it is GOD who places within me the will and desire to please Him (not from me alone).

I appreciate your discussion.

Regards

[jo kus]

You really have no idea what I'm getting at, nor do you care, apparently. You keep talking about what I assume, and what I'm thinking, without understanding what I've told you.

Sorry if I didn't understand what you were telling me. But your past posts makes it clear that you agree with my final statement:

Christ's work on the cross is done. Applying it to us is NOT done.

Regards

[bremenboy]

Question: When did God know that Abraham would fear Him? Before the creation of the world or when Abraham had the knife in his hand?? ***From before the foundation of the earth. From before the time that time was created. (Jeremiah 1:5 KJV) Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.***

Please tell me what this verse has to do with Abraham. I stated that God is able to Know all that will happen. But That doesn't mean that he chooses too. I show you a verse that is plain and clear and easy to understand. That God withholds from himself the knowledge of the future at times.

Gen 22:11-12 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

This of course fly right in the face of the false doctrine of Calvinism. The only way around this is to simply avoid the clear and simple truth. If you love truth you would see. do you believe that Jesus is God
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

[wmfights]

BTTT

[ItsOurTimeNow]

>>I could have sworn that you were from Rhode Island.<<

Eye yam.

That whole "patiently enduring evil" has come in as a handy reminder when living in the Bluest of the Blue states.

[ItsOurTimeNow]

>>I grew up getting "saved" once a year at youth camp...whether I needed it or not.<<

You too, huh?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Me: We're saved by His righteousness, and not our own.

You: Does Jesus ever say that in the Gospels?

Will Paul suffice?

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." -- 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." -- 2 Corinthians 5:21

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" -- Phil. 3:9

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

We are saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ. His righteousness covers our sins and acquits us before God. God loves us because He sees His Son in us, whom He has given to us in order for us to believe and be saved. To dismiss or even detract from this purposeful act of God is to relegate Christ to little more than a greeter at Walmart.

THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST, THE TRUE GROUND OF OUR JUSTIFICATION

[blue-duncan]

"When a person cooperates (due to God's graces), is not this OUR (mine and Christ's) righteousness? Does not Scripture speak about OUR righteousness, or the righteousness of others? I don't see Jesus righteousness "covering" everyone else, and He certainly didn't say that."

The scriptures are clear that we have no righteousness except that of Jesus.

Tts 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Tts 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[the_doc]

Thanks for the article. Most Southern Baptists in our day do not realize that their founders were Five-Point Calvinists.

Of course, the real issue is whether the Bible actually teaches the Calvinistic position. (I conclude that it does.)