Posted on 04/05/2006 9:20:50 AM PDT by Between the Lines
Oh, I forgot - "liberty" is not "license"
If you willfully sin, after becoming a Christian, must you repent of that sin?
Sure I did. "Eternal life" is defined by Jesus as Himself! He IS the "Kingdom of Heaven" in the Synoptic Gospels, "Eternal life" in John's Gospel. Christ came to give us LIFE, and give it to us TODAY!!!! Not in 30 years when we die! The power of Christianity is not found ONLY in the promise of heaven, but the power of Love that we exhibit TODAY. And how does John tell us that we acquire this? By abiding in Christ. Over and over, John's Gospel talks about Christ abiding in His disciples, enabling them to do "works greater than these". Thus, "eternal life" is God's presence within us, in John's Gospel. He is not talking about some sort of legal status of what WILL become of us! Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. Today. Not at the final Resurrection only, as He says to Martha. To John, "Life" means "Jesus Christ's presence".
THIS is realized eschatalogy. It is pretty obvious that we don't have heaven NOW! Thus, you'll have to re-analyze what "eternal life" means... Life in Christ exists today. Isn't that clear from Scriptures? We have Jesus Christ's abiding presence.
You yourself note that we have it now. But you are unclear on "what" we have. We don't have a ticket to heaven! There are NUMEROUS verses of people falling away from "salvation". THIS "eternal life" CAN be lost by our turning from Christ, by returning to works of the flesh, the vomit of our former lives. He who sins does not abide in Christ.
We have "liberty" to sin, but it is not in our best interest, and those who love God will not make it a practice.
True. My argument is against those who are absolutely certain that they cannot lose the rewards of heaven. This shows a lack of interpretation of what "eternal life" is. Losing eternal life does not effect the definition of eternal life. Christ remains unchanged. He IS eternal life, regardless of whether we sin or not. His presence indicates we HAVE eternal life - which certainly can leave us.
Calvanists remind me of Pharisees, for some reason...
I do not disagree with that statement - although at times, I have found that I, too, can be pharisaical. It is not difficult to fall into religious pride, brother.
Regards
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Mat 18:21-22
I have a difficult time thinking that God teaches forgiveness over and over - but yet in Hebrews - if I interpret it as you do - it says God will not forgive such a falling away. I would take Paul's "impossible" in Hebrews to mean more of a literary device, an exaggerated exclamation - "how could he have done that? Impossible... I don't believe it".
What do you think?
Regards
I think you and I are in "violent agreement" on at least part of the meaning of eternal life. We do have it now, not later.
If you think I believe it's a ticket to heaven, or fire insurance, as some used to say, you are mistaken. I do not subscribe to "easy" salvation, as in lip service. However, God took me as I was. Not everyone has a Damascus road experience, and is immediately "fixed". Some of us have lifelong issues with anger, for instance, but God has given me, through His Holy Spirit, what it takes to continue to deal with that.
That brings back my question on how much sin it takes to fall away. One sin will keep me from Heaven. How many to break the bond of God's love and promise to me after I've accepted His son? And, if I'm not re-baptised every time I repent of sin, I'm being disobedient, so I'm sinning again. I don't believe the scriptures teach that.
In any event, God Bless you, brother. Have a wonderful weekend.
Neither am I. I was responding to the other gentlemen who compared Pharisees and Calvinists.
Second if you want to make your salvation contingent on what "YOU" do rather than what God does then go right ahead.
Now here is a mistake you are making. You presume that either God does EVERYTHING or man EVERYTHING. Can you not conceive that when I am "in Christ", I am a new creation? I am no longer in the flesh. I am no longer without direction from above. The Spirit enables me to love others. I have no confidence in the flesh, either. But beware what Christ said: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20
When I am in Christ, I am justified, I am righteous. Me. I am a new creation, and when I love, it is because Christ moves my will and desire to please my heavenly Father. NOWHERE in the ENTIRE GOSPELS does Christ talk about HIS rightousness "covering" over you. Consider that. We will be judged based on our love. NOT by presuming that you are already bound for heaven. This does away with the Gospel's call for perseverance.
Regards
God saved me he WILL keep me saved.
That is good to hear.
That brings back my question on how much sin it takes to fall away. One sin will keep me from Heaven.
One unrepentant deadly sin will keep you away from God. Not because God is giving up on you or turning from you, but because, by its very nature, mortal sin is a turning from God - completely. That action is a willful sin, a serious one, for the sake of one's own will, the heck with God's will. How exactly is such a person still "in Christ"? A person WILLFULLY chooses a life away from God. The Scriptures give many examples of people who were righteous at one time, but turned from God. Doesn't the Scriptures have this cycle between God and the Jews as a re-occuring theme?
"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live? Ez 18:21-23
Or
"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die". Ez 18:24
Clearly, we do not remain "righteous" in God's eyes in the midst of grievious, willfully committed sin. That is a ridiculous statement. But God does send us grace of repentance, even to the wicked. Those who turn from God, the wicked, will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
And, if I'm not re-baptised every time I repent of sin, I'm being disobedient, so I'm sinning again. I don't believe the scriptures teach that.
Baptism is not the only way that Christ gave man the ability to repent and return to Him. He also gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins in His name (John 20:23). It is a ministry that Paul discusses in 2 Cor 5:16-20. James also talks about it in chapter 5. Scripture DOES teach that we (Christians) have an advocate in heaven for us, enabling us to be forgiven of sins that we do AFTER Baptism. However - importantly - it requires our following the Grace of God to come to repentance and ask for forgiveness. I would say that a person comes to forgiveness more readily after that first Confession. But one CAN return to the vomit of their former lives, nullifying the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for themselves...(Heb 10:26-27)
God Bless you, as well.
Scriptures please? Where does God say that despite any sin we do, any turning away, that God will inevitably draw YOU into heaven? Perhaps you are mistaking the elect (an unknown group to us) with those who are "saved"?
Regards
I must must be one of the elect then.
I guess I am a Calvinist and didn't even know it.
LOL! I am not calling you anything. Read the context of my writings! I am saying that OUR righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. We know how THEIR righteousness was based on the Law and their execution of it - the letter - rather than the spirit of the Law. Jesus' Sermon on the Mount goes on to describe EXACTLY HOW our righteousness will exceed the Pharisees in the next two chapters! Read them again to familiarize yourself with them. Jesus is not condemning actions, but loveless actions meant to "earn" salvation.
That I can somehow UNDO what Jesus has accomplished is ludicrous.
It is. I never said that, though. Jesus died for the sin of ALL men. Are ALL men saved for heaven? No. Jesus' action opened the gates of heaven to mankind. This is objective redemption. But we, by the Grace of God, must choose to repent and believe, die to ourselves, make a committment to obeying the will of the Father. We must turn from sin and turn to God - all done through God's graces. Jesus' actions are NOT undone! They must be applied to each person individually. Man can freely turn from God, despite what Christ did 2000 years ago - even though He died for ALL men.
Regards
Did you ever answer my question
"Have you ever lost your salvation"?
Did you ever answer my question
"Have you ever lost your salvation"?
Yes or no please.
I'll wait
Honestly, I can't answer that question with 100% certainty. And I am not required to answer it to prove my point. The Bible does not teach that we have to repent of wilfull sin just to "maintain fellowship and communication". It teaches that wilfull sin, after one becomes a child of God, causes Christ's blood to no longer cover that person's sins. At that point, the person must repent of those sins, and turn back to God in order to return to a right relationship with God.
It teaches that wilfull sin, after one becomes a child of God, causes Christ's blood to no longer cover that person's sins.
Heb. 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
"Have you ever lost your salvation?"
Honestly, I can't answer that question with 100% certainty.
Then how can you be SO certain that it's possible.
I have things to do
Have a great day.
We define salvation differently, I think. You see it as a ticket to a "vacation" in the future. I see it as receiving "Eternal life", Jesus Christ, into my life for the first time.
Can I be healed (saved) and get sick again? If sin can kill the soul, then certainly, I have lost my "salvation" before - meaning that my dead soul needed healing AGAIN.
When I say "I am saved", I am not refering to a future event, because I don't presume to be of the elect. Only those who are the elect will God inevitably draw to Him. I HOPE to be of the elect. I can ascertain that today, I probably am. But the future? Who can say?
Thus, it is difficult to answer your question, because we mean different things by "salvation". I am not in heaven yet, so I never received this sort of salvation yet. And to be honest, a "ticket" for the future is not salvation TODAY.
Regards
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