TULIP - Divine sovereignty, human responsibility (Southern Baptists and Calvinism)

Baptist Press ^ | Apr 4, 2006 | Daniel L. Akin

[bremenboy]

Jesus says otherwise. Matthew 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? Matthew 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.?

You should really keep to the context of the passage verse 12 of Matt sets the stage Jesus is referring to the truth that he had left heaven to find his sheep.

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Once again you need to look at the context verse 15:1-2 sets the stage Luk 15:1-2 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

Jesus is teaching to the pharisees and scribes that thoses publicans and sinner are worthy of drawing near to him and when they do heaven is filled with joy.

Question ? Luke 15:4 "What man of you"

Is this referring to Christ or the Pharisees and scribes. Jesus is making a comparison of the effort to find worldly things like livestock and coins which the so called religious leaders at the time would do and the great joy they have when they find it. To further illustrate the point he goes on and with the parable of the prodigal son.
Jesus came into the world to seek and save. this he did and still dose through his word he calls those who are lost those who are saved hear his voice and follow him.(He is looking for you right now just open your ears listen to his words obey his voice)

Calvinism teaches that you are born a sinner and that once save from you sins you can't so sin as to be lost. what dose the words of God mean when we are told that Satan is a lion seeking who he may destroy. can't be the lost they are already lost born that way totally evil so teaches Calvin. can't be the sheep they can't be destroyed so teaches Calvin who is it that Satan seeks
Think

Acts 20:28-31 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. "

- Wolves may enter among the flock, speak perverse things, and draw away the disciples. They cannot compel us to follow them and be lost. We may still choose to follow the Lord's voice. But false teachers can lure us, attract us, and tempt us.

[jo kus]

If a man can lose his eternal life before he dies, then obviously can he lose his eternal punishment after he is dead. If he can fall away from eternal life by straying from the path, then certainly he can fall away from eternal death by getting back on it, huh?

First, what is "eternity"? Does it mean "a really long time"? or "timelessness"? Hopefully, you will see it is the second. There is no time for God. All is now.

Second, John's Gospel's definition of "life" and the Synoptic's definition of "Kingdom of God" is meant to begin even NOW. Re-read the Beatitudes. "Blessed are they who...for the Kingdom of God is THEIRS. Today! Not 30 years from now when they die. Thus, "eternal life" is something that begins even now. And what IS this eternal life? It is abiding in Christ. Whether that is in heaven or the here and now - "the Kingdom is at hand..."

And finally, having eternal life, Christ within you, it doesn't follow that YOU will possess it eternally. Only when we are finally judged upon our death will our eternal status be assigned - why? Because our will has been established for or against Christ. It is no longer changeable in the unchangeable timelessness of God's "time". While alive, there is always that possibility of returning to the vomit of our former lives.

Thus, you CAN lose Christ's eternal love abiding within you while you live. But once you are judged, your status will not change.

Regards

[P-Marlowe]

First, what is "eternity"? Does it mean "a really long time"? or "timelessness"? Hopefully, you will see it is the second.

Of course I do. But YOU don't. You have defined it to a place where it has compeletly lost its meaning. You have redefined it to fit your works-based salvation theology.

We are talking over each other at this point. I think it best if we end the conversation here.

Thanks,

Marlowe

[bremenboy]

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. Never accuse anyone of losing their salvation.

The Doctrine of Calvinism prevents people for getting salvation so I am not accusing anyone of losing what they don't have. Are you Judging me? If your are use Righteous Judgment

[jo kus]

Of course I do. But YOU don't. You have defined it to a place where it has compeletly lost its meaning. You have redefined it to fit your works-based salvation theology.

I suppose a simple "we are talking past each other, let's drop it" was too much for you... You'll have to fill me in some day on how the Spirit of God moves you to write with such acid.

[WKB]

"Denial of Christ leads to His denial of us."



My first question is will\can a Truly Blood Washed
Born Again Christian deny Christ?

Next I'll ask you the same questions another Salvation
Loser wouldn't or couldn't answer.

Please tell just how much sinning I have to do
to get unsaved?
How will I know when I have crossed the line from
saved back to unsaved?
How do I get resaved (if that's possible)?
AND
How many times have you been saved and lost in
your lifetime?

[bremenboy]

Again we have two scriptures that appears to contradict each other. So is it once fallen away an eternity in hell or once fallen away there is a second chance for salvation? we must agree that God's word can't Contadict so when there appears a contadiction it must be due to are lack of understanding the pasage reads as follows.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Note 1.This is speaking about those once enlightened. 2. who tasted the heavenly gift and the good word of God. 3. and were partakers of the Holy Spirit We are warned not to fall away . If they continue in this pattern of life , they cannot be restored. They are crucifying Jesus afresh and putting Him to an open shame Their destiny is to be burned like a field of thorns.

this is very similar to
Heb 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Remember the example of the Jews in the wilderness. When they had no food and God Gave them Mania from Heaven. The food was there for all to eat but some grew weary of it. what God is teaching is for us not to grow weary. Of the bread of life from heaven that God has given us. If we don't like what he has given then we will just have to go hungry and die.

He give us his best if that isn't good enough for you or me then too bad so sad

[bremenboy]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God .

while I due respect much of what you post may i suggest that if you look closely at this verse that the subject is salvation not faith and the it is in reference to the subject

[bremenboy]

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. -- 2 Corinthians 1:21,22

The srcripures have been give to us by the Holy Spirit to guild us. if god"s word is in are hearts then we are guarantee to be saved because we have his word to teach us how live and how pleases God. And warns us how not to live and be castaway

[ItsOurTimeNow]

>>Southern Baptists can't be Calvinists<<

This one is.

[ItsOurTimeNow]

>>What's the matter with you people? Are you all on vacation or just weary of the TULIP Wars? It's pretty bad when all that's left to defend Calvin are the neeners!<<

"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil..."

2 Tim 2v24

[blue-duncan]

"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil..."

I could have sworn that you were from Rhode Island.

[jo kus]

My first question is will\can a Truly Blood Washed Born Again Christian deny Christ?

Yes.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Heb 10:26-27

Please tell just how much sinning I have to do to get unsaved?

"Enough" to be disinherited from the Kingdom. One "deadly" sin would be sufficient.

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death". 1 John 5:16-17

How will I know when I have crossed the line from saved back to unsaved?

When the overall direction in your life changes from doing works of love to doing works for yourself. This change in self is not always noticeable to that person, but others will note it.

How do I get resaved (if that's possible)?

"repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15

Please note the word "belief" in the above is not a mere intellectual recognition of Christ, but "faith working in love" (Gal 6)

How many times have you been saved and lost in your lifetime?

I don't keep track of those sort of things, but Jesus did say:

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Mat 18:21-22

Regards

[WKB]

"Enough" to be disinherited from the Kingdom. One "deadly" sin would be sufficient.

Define deadly sin. If I can lose my salvation I want specifics not general statements.
Something as important as that I would think would be spelled out very clearly in scripture.
Does it take one beer or staying drunk a week.
One lustful look or a long term affair.
One murder or just an attempted murder
Expound please.
I don't want to take any chances

How will I know when I have crossed the line from saved back to unsaved?

This change in self is not always noticeable to that person, but others will note it.

So if I lose my salvation others will know it but I won't. As a Christian I have the Holy Spirit living with in me and The Holy Spirit exists my body and others know it but I don't.
I have to develop some sort of Spiritual amnesia where I forget everything that has ever happened to me. That really doesn't make sense to me.

How many times have you been saved and lost in your lifetime?
I don't keep track of those sort of things,

First you said the person losing their salvation wouldn't know it and now you say you have lost your salvation so many times you can keep count.
I'm confused.

[jo kus]

Define deadly sin

A "mortal" or "deadly" sin is one that is of grievious nature, requiring full knowledge and done freely. This free desire to sin, despite full knowledge, is an active turning from God - there is NO excuse. Thus, Christ is not abiding in such a person. The person is spiritually dead - although they may continue to have faith in God - Love has left.

So if I lose my salvation others will know it but I won't.

I said a person might not realize it - BECAUSE they are in denial. People have a funny way of denying they are wounded or have a problem. Some people do not examine their lives, but simply presume they are 'saved' and are seen as righteous in God's eyes no matter what sort of faith they display by their works of love.

I have to develop some sort of Spiritual amnesia where I forget everything that has ever happened to me. That really doesn't make sense to me.

Have I not given you enough verses from 1 John about how WE can KNOW we are abiding in Christ? If a person makes an honest appraisal of their recent actions, they can determine whether they TRULY are in the Spirit. Perhaps you can imagine that some people do not make such an examination of selves - but presume that God will not leave their hearts despite their willful disobedience.

First you said the person losing their salvation wouldn't know it and now you say you have lost your salvation so many times you can keep count. I'm confused.

Such was not my intent and I apologize if I was the cause of your confusion. Many people do not "know" (a better word might be "realize") they have fallen away from God because their attitudes towards God has changed. They have fallen out of love, much like a married couple who just grow out of love with each other. Their relationship sours, they are indifferent, and eventually, something happens where one or the other just move on to something else. During this process, unless a person makes an active attempt to examine their relationship, I would contend that most don't even realize it is happening. They just fall away. The same can happen in OUR relationship with the Lord.

Christ teaches an example of this in the Parable of the Sower. Recall that some of the seed fell on thorny ground, others on rocky ground...In both cases, the seed DIED (not "it was never planted to begin with...") - but that which fell on the rocky ground initially grew - but it had not roots. So during dry spells, it died. The same happens in our Christian walk if we are not careful. Some people rely on feelings in prayer or worship. When they don't "feel" God's presence, they begin to doubt that He is there - and during a difficult time, they may fall away from the Lord. Again, a process that the Christian may not even realize is happening. But other people might, because they notice an attitudinal change about this person. They are no longer joyful, especially in the face of suffering or persecution, for example. Or maybe people just become enamoured with the world (as the seed falling on thorny ground indicates).

People do fall away. Christ recognized it. The Apostles and writers of the New Testament saw it. We see it today. It is dishonest to charge that a person's conversion never occured in such cases. It also casts doubt on EVERY Christian's initial conversion - since who can tell if they, too, will fall away in 10 years?

By the way, I never said "I lost my salvation so many times that I lost count"...I said I don't keep track of such things. My example on forgiveness was meant to show you that it doesn't matter how many times I fell away - as long as I am truly sorry and return to my Lord.

Regards

[WKB]

You know I think I'll just believe what Jesus said
rather than your Biblical contortions

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,

John 4:14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

John 5:24 I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

John 17:2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

As you say "Regards"

[HeadOn]

Sorry. No sale. You did not address the scriptures. If someone has "eternal" life they can't lose it. If they can, it's not "eternal". Notice it doesn't say we "will have" eternal life. It says we "have" it - right now.

I keep Jesus' commandments because I love Him. We have "liberty" to sin, but it is not in our best interest, and those who love God will not make it a practice.

Calvanists remind me of Pharisees, for some reason...

[jkl1122]

I don't see the Scriptures teaching that we have liberty to sin.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Amen.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." -- Hebrews 6:4-6

I like your homepage. 8~)

[HeadOn]

1 Cor 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Yes, I understand that this is in the middle of a chapter which is speaking in harsh terms against those who sin. Note the idea, here, though. Salvation wipes away all sin, but "I will not be brought under the power of any." In other words, we all sin (see previous post), but we should strive not to be "under the power" of it.

Christ covered all my sins, past, present, and future. Pair the above with Romans 6:15, and you understand what I believe: "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."