Explaining Jews, part 1: What is a Jew?

WorldnetDaily.com ^ | 01/04/2006 | Dennis Prager

[topcat54]

What it means, don't be cruel to animals, but it's OK to eat them.

Is there a "Noachide Talmud" to go along with these alleged "Noachide Laws"?

[familyop]

Converts are fully Jewish and not to be regarded as any less, according to some very generous Orthodox rabbis who are helping me to study (even though I'm not Jewish). There's a lot of study, though, along with a few surprises (lots of myths against Judaism and some of its explanatory books debunked along the way). It's not an instant or changing religion.

...except that some judges in and advisors behind (rabbinical) divorce courts became rather flexible toward feminism/romanticism during the '90s or before, as also happened so much throughout Christianity. Many children of Orthodox Jewish men have been led into Christianity after frivolous divorces. IMO, the divorce paradigm will fade as the current trend toward obedience continues and anti-family divorce laws are eventually repealed by some nations (secular courts).

[familyop]

"The Seven Noahide Laws actually come out to about to 230 of the 613 Mitzvot (obligations) which Jews must fulfill."

It's been emphasized that there are only the Seven for us, but that information about many of the laws that only Jewish people are commanded to do further explain the Seven for all who try to be righteous Noachides. We are carefully taught about the differences between what is for Jewish people and what is not for Jewish people. The more difficult-to-grasp stuff for newbie learners like myself comes after that. [g]

BTW, the publisher is working hard to keep up with orders by at least some well-known distributors of full sized, Stone edition copies of the Tanakh. Back orders are happening. That's good news, though.

[dervish]

"If a convert converts back then what are they?"

I don't think Judaism believes that you can revert which is another reason conversion is not encouraged.

[familyop]

"Is there a 'Noachide Talmud' to go along with these alleged 'Noachide Laws'?"

No, there isn't. Those laws were given to Adam and Noah. They are in the Torah (first five books of the Bible).

The Talmud is the result of studies by those who studied the Bible enough to help others understand it.

1. Neo-Nazi sites on the Net often refer to non-existant entries in the Talmud and take others out of context. An English, liberal version that was translated by a Brit is often used by neo-Nazis. Look for many conspiracy stories and compositions of religious "identity" propaganda on those same sites (along with stories about extraterrestrial invaders and the "new world order" on some). They seek to turn Christians against Jews.

2. The Talmud was written during times when the people of Israel were attacked, murdered and tortured to death by the armies of another very barbaric, pagan Empire that sought to exterminate/replace them.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Okay that makes sense.

I'm still murky on the children of converts. Does it depend on how they are raised or can they be considered born Jewish? What if they reject the faith? Are they no longer Jewish? Is the answer different if the mother is an ethnic Jew and only the father is a convert?

Would a spouse who converts be considered part of the tribe of the spouse?

A have a friend (gentile Christian) who married a Jewish man. They had two boys together. His family was very upset about him marrying a non-Jew and he ended up leaving his wife and kids when the boys were very young. He refused to have anything to do with them. The boys are grown now and very much resent what their so-called father did. He has always acted as though they do not exist. If I remember correctly, they are not considered half Jewish by the father even though that's how I consider them.

[Clay+Iron_Times]

And that must be prefaced by circumcision and mikvah (and a sacrifice when the Temple is standing) just as it was then. Sinai never ends -- there's a rerun for every ger.

Realizing the subject matter is much broader than I wish to comment on, I chose to address "The Law" portion (with the book of Hebrews) written to the Jews. I hope you didnt mind and I welcome your response.

Hebrews 10:1 For the Law (the Law of Moses) having a shadow of good things to come (the Law of Moses was only meant to be temporary; it portrayed Christ Who was to come),and not the very image of the things (it was quite impossible for the Law to present a proper image of Who and what Christ would be; it suggest such, but was only a suggestion), can never with those Sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (The animal Sacrifices could only cover sins, they couldn't take away sins. That remained for Christ to do [John 1:29]

Hebrews 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? (Paul asked this question simply because the fact that the animal Sacrifices had to be offered over and over proclaimed their insufficiency. They were, in reality, only a stopgap measure.) because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (This proclaims what the Proper Sacrifice of Christ could do, and did do. The phrase, "no more conscience of sin," should not be misunderstood as "no more consciousness of sin.")

Hebrews 10:3 But in those Sacrifices (animal Sacrifices)there is a remembrance again made of sins every year (That the High Priest of Israel had to go into the Holy of Holies once a year with animal blood proclaimed the fact that this system was basically flawed, and was meant only to point to Christ Who was to come.)

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (The word "impossible" is a strong one. It means there is no way forward through the blood of animals. As well it applies to all other efforts made by man to address the problem of sin, other than the Cross.)

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when He (the Lord Jesus) comes into the world (presents Christ coming as Saviour, Who undertakes in Grace to meet every claim the Throne of God has against penitent sinners), He said, (Psalms 40:6) Sacrifice and Offering You would not (refers to the fact that He would pay for sin, but not with animal Sacrifices), but a Body have You prepared Me (God became man with the full intention that His Perfect Physical Body was to be offered up in Sacrifice on the Cross, which it was; the Cross was ever His destination):

Hebrews 10:6 In Burnt Offerings and Sacrifices for sin (proclaims the root of the problem which besets mankind--it is "sin"; the idea is, that the Sacrifices were not sufficient as it regards "sin"; therefore God took no pleasure in them in that capacity) You have had no pleasure.

Hebrews 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the Volume of the Book it is written of Me,) (The entirety of the Old Testament points exclusively to Christ, and in every capacity.) to do Your Will, O God. (The Cross was the Will of God because it had to be if man was to be Redeemed.)

Hebrews 10:8 Above when He said, Sacrifice and Offering and Burnt Offerings and Offering for sin You would not (refers to the fact that animal Sacrifices could not cleanse from sin), neither had pleasure therein (concerns the insufficiency of the Sacrifice); which are offered by the Law (refers to the fact that all these Offerings were included in the Mosaic Law; even though instigated by God, they were meant to point to Christ)

Hebrews 10:9 Then said He, Lo, I come to do Your Will, O God. (The doing of the Will of God, as it regards Christ, pertained totally and completely to His Sacrifice of Himself on the Cross.) He takes away the First (the Old Covenant which He did by the Sacrifice of Himself), that He may establish the Second (The New Covenant which He did by going to the Cross, the only way it could be established).

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will (the Sacrifice of Christ took away the First Covenant, satisfying its demands, and established the New Covenant) we are Sanctified through the Offering of the Body of Jesus Christ once for all (this proclaims unequivocally that the only way the Believer can live a victorious life is by the Cross ever being the object of his Faith.)

Hebrews 10:11 And every Priest stands daily Ministering and offering oftentimes the same Sacrifices, which can never take away sins. (proclaims the insufficiency of this method)

Hebrews 10:12 But this Man (this Priest, Christ Jesus), after He had offered one Sacrifice for sins forever (speaks of the Cross), sat down on the Right Hand of God (refers to the great contrast with the Priest under the Levitical system, who never sat down because their work was never completed; the work of Christ was a "Finished Work," and needed no repetition);

Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till His enemies be made His footstool. (These enemies are Satan and all the fallen Angels and demon spirits, plus all who follow Satan)

Hebrews 10:14 For by one Offering He has perfected forever them who are Sanctified. (Everything one needs is found in the Cross [Galatians 6:14];)

Hebrews 10:15 Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us (a witness to the Cross): for after that He had said before (refers to the fact that the Holy Spirit has always witnessed to the veracity of the Finished Work of Christ),

Hebrews 10:16 This is the Covenant that I will make with them after those days (proclaims its distinctive feature as being the Sanctifying Work of the Holy Spirit Who would be caused to take up His permanent abode in the Believer, all made possible by the Cross), says the Lord, I will put My Laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them (the work of the New Covenant, which accompanies the Born-again experience);

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more (He has taken them all away, and did so by the Cross)

Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is (with all sins Atoned, the argument is settled), there is no more Offering for sin. (No more offering is necessary, for Christ paid it all)

Hebrews 10:19 Having therefore, Brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus (the Cross has made it possible for any and every Believer to come into the presence of the very Throne of God, and at any time so desired)

Hebrews 10:20 By a new and living way (presents the New Covenant), which He has consecrated for us (by the Cross), through the Veil (contains an allusion to the Veil which separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place in the Tabernacle), that is to say, His flesh (refers to giving Himself on the Cross, which opened up the way to God);

Hebrews 10:21 And having an High Priest over the House of God (the actual Greek says, "a Priest, a Great One"; He is the Head [Col. 1:18];

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of Faith (Faith in the Finished Work of Christ), having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (This portrays Paul using Old Testament Types to represent the reality we now have in Christ [Lev. chapters 8-9],)

Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our Faith without wavering (Faith in Christ and the Cross); (for He is faithful Who Promised;) (This refers to the fact that everything the New Covenant promises, which is Salvation and total victory over all sin, will be realized in totality.)

[familyop]

Oops. Allow me to try to correct my answer to that. The Declaration that you refer to is only applicable to the Jews as a category (of laws) given directly to them at the time, IIRC. But there is also a law against idolatry for non-Jews (see Seven Noachide laws as given to Adam and Noah in Torah). The sites linked below can give much better answers than mine.

SirLinksalot wrote:
"Lets see if this holds true --- The first and most important commandment states --- THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
Is the above commandment strictly only for Jews ? Or is it applicable to all mankind ?"

It's applicable to all mankind. Here are some sites for answers.

AskNoah
http://www.asknoah.org/

Moshiach Online
http://www.asknoah.org/

[SirLinksalot]

<<<<
It's applicable to all mankind. Here are some sites for answers.
>>>

If it is applicable to all mankind, then the previous post that I got telling me that man can be right with God in his own way without Jews (or anyone) needing to tell them about the true God (if accurate) tells me that Jews are too optimistic about man's ability to know YHWH.

[SJackson]

Tribal affiliation would follow the father. Though it's not much of an issue, in your example of a converted mother children's affiliation would follow the father. Children of a converted father would have no tribal affiliation.

Despite it's popularity in theh press and frequently on FR, there is no concept of a "half-Jew". Either you're Jewish or not, by birth or conversion, with some variation in standards in the Reform movement. In your example the children of your friend, I assume she never converted, would not be considered Jewish in any way by any denomination. The generally misunderstood Reform concept of paternal potentiality would apply in cases like this only if the children were raised as Jews, participating in the Jewish community, receiving a Jewish education, a bris, a bar/bat mitzvah, and confirmation. The father is correct that they're not Jewish, though he's a complete jerk.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Okay thanks.

If you are born Jewish (both mother and father are Jewish) but religiously you are an atheist, are you still Jewish?

[SJackson]

If you are born Jewish (both mother and father are Jewish) but religiously you are an atheist, are you still Jewish?

If you're born Jewish you're Jewish.

If you convert to another religion, you'd be accurately described as an apostate Jew or a heretic, and wouldn't be allowed to participate in communial Jewish activities such as participating in a minyan leading the Congregation in prayer. Personally, I've never come across a Jew who converted to, for example, Catholocism, who wanted to be referred to as a Jew, but an apostate is what he'd be. I'd call him a Catholic myself.

As an athiest, one may have abandoned their belief in God, but hasn't adopted another religion, so generally they wouldn't be considered an apostate. I doubt that's unique to Judiasm. And again, it's not really much of an issue. If someone is a proclaimed athiest, he's not likely to refer to himself as a Jew.

[beyond the sea]

This forum never ceases to amaze!

How's this for amazing ....... from my old buddy, Jackie Mason?

****

Ruth and Golda were walking along Hendon High Street.

Ruth says, "My son Irving is getting married. He tells me he is engaged to a wonderful girl, but... he thinks she may have a disease called herpes.

Golda says, "Do you have any idea what this herpes is, and can he catch it?"

Ruth replies, "No, but I am just so thrilled to hear about Irving's engagement - it's time he settled down. As far as the herpes goes...who knows?"

"Well," says Golda, "I have a very good medical dictionary at home. I'll look it up and call you."

So Golda goes home, looks it up, and calls Ruth. "Ruth, I found it. Not to worry. It says herpes is a disease of the gentiles."

Oye!

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

But if you are born of a Jewish father then you are not Jewish? And if you are born of a Jewish mother but a Gentile father you are Jewish?

[SJackson]

But if you are born of a Jewish father then you are not Jewish? And if you are born of a Jewish mother but a Gentile father you are Jewish?

From a traditional perspective, correct. The child of the Jewish father would need to convert. Reform Judiasm would look to religious practice as well.

[The Ghost of FReepers Past]

Thanks for the info SJackson. I appreciate it.

[SJackson]

You're welcome, I know it's confusing

[hlmencken3]

Judaism is a completely different religion than Christianity. It is not Christianity without Jesus. You could just as well quote the Vedas or the Grunt Sahb.

[topcat54]

"Is there a 'Noachide Talmud' to go along with these alleged 'Noachide Laws'?"

No, there isn't. Those laws were given to Adam and Noah. They are in the Torah (first five books of the Bible).

Well, the rest of the laws are also found in the five books of Moses, yet there is considerable body of work called the Talmud that explains and applies the Torah.

My reason for asking is that it seemed to be necessary for someone to write an explanation about (at least) the fourth of these so-called Noachide laws. They do not seem to be free-standing. Don't the gentiles also need the benefit of a Talmud to help them understand?

[retarmy]

You wrote, "I mean, an ethnic Jew is always a Jew, but obviously not so with a convert."

There is no such thing as an "ethnic" Jew any more than there is an “ethnic” Baptist or an “ethnic” Lutheran. Judaism is a religion, not an ethnicity. Although Judaism began with the Semitic tribes (they are an ethnicity), it spread to other ethnicities as well, such as the Khazars of Kazakhstan through conversion in the ninth century.

And a Semitic Jew is not always a Jew. They may convert to Christianity or Islam as well and believe as deeply and totally in their new religion as a devout Jew does in Judaism.