Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Very true. I am glad that Catholics and Orthodox are talking to each other about union, but union won't happen any time soon. I think that the major reason Rome sounds so agreeable is that Catholicism is shrinking in Western Europe, while millions of Muslim immigrants continue to flood in. Rome needs allies to counter its waning influence and numbers in Europe.
I am sure there is a great sense of camaraderie in teaming together to refute Protestants, but at some point Catholics and Orthodox will have to sit down and discussion in substance the profound issues that separate the two communions. You can portray those differences as being very slight, but I think history has shown otherwise. If you accuse Protestants of ignoring history, I hope you won't be guilty of the same.
Many of the issues that brought about the Protestant Reformation are the same issues that separate Rome from the Orthodox. Good luck. When you get it all resolved, let me know and I will apply for membership. But I think that would require a belief in reincarnation in order to live and see this happen.
Yes, I know. So if I say John 10 tells me I'm not going to be snatch out of the Lord's hand because He is going to care for me, then I'm wrong because the Church states it? That's the same argument they used on Luther with indulgences. It didn't work.
While Romans and Galatians are expecially often cited in support of once-saved-always-saved heresy (or whatever its politically correct name is these days), both Romans and Galatians start with correcting the respective errors St. Paul is addressing -- belief is salvific character of works of Jewish law, or works of Roman law, or works for either temporal or spiritual reward -- and then proceeds to exhort his readers to works of charity, and to teach them how to increase their faith. This is in fact true for all his "geographical" letters.
... then you are presuming, sinfully, that you are among the elect and not among those who do not know your master's voice. This parable cuts both ways.
Of course. The Church does not argue otherwise. Still, Christ told us that we have to do quite a bit. Quoting myself from this very thread:
Good Works Are Required For Salvation, Scripture Says Christ was asked what one needs to do in order to be saved. His answer was, obey the commandments (work); give everything to the poor (work), pick up the cross and follow Him (work). Indeed,
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life? 19 And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. 20 Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill: Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother.If you fail to show mercy and charity (work, work) do not call on Christ with your faith because He will say, "Do I know you?". Indeed,21 Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth. 22 Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee: sell all whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 He having heard these things, became sorrowful; for he was very rich.
(Luke 18, similar Matthew 19:16-22)
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
(Matthew 25)
*** 16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.
(Matthew 7, similar in Luke 6:46-49)
For good measure:
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.(Apocalypse 20)
(1058)
Maybe this time Dr. Eckleburg will take time to respond.
Any good works that I may do is simply because of God working through me. Granted, I can make this easy or difficult on myself, such as Jonah. God will for me will not be stopped just because I decide to go one way than the way God wants me to go. God will bring me around. At what precise point do you think that God will stop reproving you to let your "free will" kick in?
Many people, including my Protestant brethren, seem to think that God gives a command and then moans when we don't follow through. What utter nonsense to talk about our majestic God in such terms.
Tell me, HD, what do the Orthodox believe happens to the souls? Do the Orthodox and the Cathlolics have memorial services? Do they believe that the souls get purified? Do they believe the souls are "uncomfortable?" Do they pray for the souls?
What's it to you how the Catholics and Orthodox worship, or how they pray, or what they believe? Are you here to learn or are you here to be a troll?
Absolutely. Please refer to me as saint Harley (you don't have to capitalize the "s" in saint).
There isn't anything sinful about it because I know that there isn't ANYTHING that I have done to merit my salvation-nor is there anything that I have to do. My salvation does not rest with me but with the finished work of Christ. Any merger works that I might have performed within my short life I will cast before the throne of my Lord Jesus because it was Him working through me. I've done absolutely nothing.
Actually the original intent of this thread was to point out to my Protestant brethren how the argument of "free will" is a Catholic doctrine. Little did I realize that it would end up 7,900+ posts later with me arguing to the Catholics and Orthodox.
Are you here to learn or are you here to be a troll?
I'm not sure what precisely a troll is-but it must not be a good thing. One thing is fact, I have learned a lot from this thread.
"Here I am, meticulously not flagging you in 7837 to avoid any appearance of presuming that you do not know how to raise sheep, and still falling short of your approval. No wonder we are refused communion."
Ha! Touche!
Absolutely. But you are wrong, and uncharitable, to think that all we have here is the fun one experiences in banding up for a turkey shoot. It is rather a joy of discovering that despite a thousand ears of separation, and despite some inevitable drift, we preserved the same deposit of patristic faith. It is akin to the discovery that four evangelists got a detail wrong here and there, but all four preserved the same historical account.
The schism with the Protestants is qualitatively different, it cuts to the core of the faith.
Then why are Catholics and Orthodox not in communion if you have the same core of faith?
If you truly believe this was the intent of our Lord's discord with the rich, young ruler then consider this:
Here's a command of our Lord Jesus. Let me know when you do it. You may have to use the computer at the library to converse on Freepers for you're suppose to sell everything.
Every verse that you quoted (and the one I quoted) simply shows how we fall short of following God's commands. The young man was so smug thinking he was perfect-he wasn't and our Lord Jesus took him to task in a loving way. It is by recognizing our shortfalls that we recognize God's grace.
BTW-Our Lord knew that God wasn't the center of this man's life in His opening dialogue. Our Lord Jesus said, "Why do you call me good. None is good but God alone." This was obviously a play on words since this man WAS talking to God. I will also hasten to add that NONE is good would also include Mary.
"I didn't know if I could wear a robe, a beard and one of those funny hats! ;O) "
Who says we would have asked you to become a member of the clergy, Harley? :-)
"Where most make a mistake is to assume Reformed theology does not trace back through the western church. It does."
I have to agree with jk on this one -- while there are things in St. Augustine that are very friendly to a Calvinist-style monergism, I don't see even a thread of continuity even within the West. On the other hand, we Orthodox are very fond of most of the great pre-schismatic Western fathers, esp. SS. Ambrose, Hilary, Leo, and Vincent of Lerins.
That does seem to me to be a humble position, not one of arrogance. Perhaps some people cannot recognize the difference if they are too busy trying to remove the mote in someone else's eye when they haven't removed the beam in their own.
Well it is interesting how we can read the church fathers differently just as we can read scripture. When I first heard of the Reformed theology I thought it was absurd and couldn't believe that it was ever taught by the Church. I did not study the Reformers for I felt that would taint my view. Instead I went back and read a number of the church fathers, scripture from the Reformed perspective, and studied church history. I was wrong.
The argument that the Reformed theology does not trace back to the early church just isn't believable in my mind simply because that is where I came to my understanding. The Reformers based many of their works upon the church fathers and constantly refers to them. The Orthodox minimizes these works and the Catholics ignores them. This goes back to my earlier argument that people pick and choose what to accept out of tradition to support their own conclusions. But there is a thread of continuity.
If we are really going to get technical on this issue, the Pope in whose name his legate Cardinal Humbert excommunicated the Ecumenical Patriarch was dead for three months when this "excommunication" took place. Cardinal Humbert had no authority to excommunicate anyone in the name of the Bishop of Rome, because his mandate as the Pope's legate expired upon the the Popes passing.
Cardinal Humbert certainly had a right, as a bisop, to excommunicate another bishop, but not in the name of the Patriarch of the West.
For that reason, the excommunication coming from the Bishop of Constanpinople, the Ecumenical Patriarch, was directed only at Cardinal Humbert and not at the deceased Pope, or the Latin Church.
Thus, from a legal point of view, and I would invite Kolo to comment on this, there was no "excommunication" of either the Bishop of Rome or the Bishop of Constantinople.
The picture is even more complicated than that (the Ecumenical Patriarch at that time was himself a man of temper and has contributed his share to sparks lfying). If anything, the whole episode was one of most un-Christian behavior among top Church officials, and one void of any charity on both sides. Suffice it to say that treating these issues lightly on FR does no one any justice.
The same goes for the degree of schism of the Latin and Greek Churches. For sure, the differences can be exaggerated or minimized, but they are there. Until such time that they are resolved, we cannot commune in each other's churches, although it is safe to say that there is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, of which either one or both are incomplete representations of Her. I think it is wise to leave it at that.
Because there is an outer shell that is not the same. Until that shell is removed, we cannot commune because communion is an expression and not a means of being one.
The problem is with "being saved" as a moment on this earth, as opposed to being saved at the moment of death, based on our deeds as Christians, on our likeness to Christ. But no matter how you turn it, it is always God's mercy that saves us.
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