Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
You did not notice a response, but there was at least one, from me, in 6160:
When it states [in Rom 3:23] that all have sinned it includes MaryNo it doesn't. The adjacent verses make clear that "all" refers to the Godless who toil uinder the law of nature or the law of Moses (compare verses 11-18). That passage stands in direct contrast to Luke 1:28, "hail full of grace". That grace is the grace of Christ that justifies the believer, starting with Mary, as Paul explains in verses 24-30.
Thus, you are effectively taking salvation away from God's decree and handing it over to men's good choices.
But Scripture tells us all men are fallen and none can please God unless and until God regenerates the dead heart and instills the work of the Holy Spirit inside of us. Like Lazarus, we are dead until we are made alive by His will.
In truth, the sheep were sheep from before the foundation of the world. This is a profound security the world wants you to ignore.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself" -- Ephesians 1:4-9"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
I assume it was thus for the goats, also. (Certainly Paul in Romans supports that.)
Or else salvation depends on the will of men, and not the predestining decree of God alone, creator of heaven and earth and everything therein.
If men can accomplish their own salvation, then other men and powers and principalities can offer them a way to achieve it by handing over their lives and fortunes and souls to the temporal powers of this world.
We are cautioned not to do that very thing. Instead, Paul tells us nothing can separate us from the God who, by mercy alone, chose us from before the foundation of the world.
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. " -- Romans 8:-32-39 "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
So much simpler than some would have it. Saved by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ, as He ordained from before the foundation of the world, for His glory and the welfare of His children. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:4-7"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Christ's work is over. Mine isn't. From my earlier post (1058):
Christ was asked what one needs to do in order to be saved. His answer was, obey the commandments (work); give everything to the poor (work), pick up the cross and follow Him (work). Indeed,
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying: Good master, what shall I do to possess everlasting life? 19 And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. 20 Thou knowest the commandments: Thou shalt not kill: Thou shalt not commit adultery: Thou shalt not steal: Thou shalt not bear false witness: Honour thy father and mother.If you fail to show mercy and charity (work, work) do not call on Christ with your faith because He will say, "Do I know you?". Indeed,21 Who said: All these things have I kept from my youth. 22 Which when Jesus had heard, he said to him: Yet one thing is wanting to thee: sell all whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. 23 He having heard these things, became sorrowful; for he was very rich.
(Luke 18, similar Matthew 19:16-22)
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
(Matthew 25)
*** 16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.
(Matthew 7, similar in Luke 6:46-49)
For good measure:
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.(Apocalypse 20)
I am not sure I parse your grammar correctly, but if you agree that we are called to sainthood, why do you refuse to pray to saints?
God bless. Thank you for your patience and knowledge. Hurry back.
I read the Gospel as written. Why don't you do the same every once in a while?
I assume it was thus for the goats, also.
Don't assume. Read the Gospel.
The rest of your quotes do not speak to the issue of role of works at all.
Good works, like all good things, come from God and are the result of our salvation, not the cause of it.
Otherwise, men determine salvation, and God is left doling out the paychecks for wages earned.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
All glory to God.
Is it just me or has it become obvious that the bottom line on a lot of this is authority?
Our authority for the correct meaning of scripture is, roughly, either:
1) Ourselves (w/presence of Holy Spirit) - our personal interpretation and reasoning.
2) 1) above with another authority we recognize such as Calvin or Luther or MacArthur for example.
3) Our Church (speaking of Catholicism here)
Even if we all accept this simple breakdown, the issue remains still "which authority is properly authorized"?
And to answer this, we circle back on scripture and authority to interpret scripture again, and again..
You salvation now depends on just how sanctified you can make yourself?
Can you do better than Paul?
It contains everything you need or can know about God.
Peter went to the Jews. Are they actively following Christ?
That is what it means.
No, the voice of God does not come to man by letters on a page - but through the LIPS of prophets and messengers. Don't forget that. The Bible is full of such men...
Hebrews 1:1 ¶God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
It is ALWAYS necessary.
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God,
it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
The point is that there was not a co redeemer.
Then or now.
FC David says he will "go to" the baby who has died
Well duh, of course -- if you don't read into it too hard. He will die, too, and go wherever the baby's spirit is (the Jews did not have a concept of hell, just a repository for dead souls). He didn't need any inspired knoweldge that everyone, including kings, die. There is absolutely nothing profound in his statement. He is lamneting his own bad judgment.
But what is disturbing is that the baby is dead because it was a child born out of promiscuity of adultery and God killed him to punish David! The God of Life, God Who is Love, kills an innocent child to punish his adulterous parents. Truly merciful.
So much for the OT statements such as that no man is responsible for other man's sin, or that a father cannot atone for the son, or the son for the father.
Contrast that with the God in the NT when Christ chases away men who wanted to stone a prostitute and, having been left alone with her, says "There is no one here to condemn you."
Night and day. Judaism and Christianity.
Absolutely.
"It follows from all we have said,
that there are in the Christian world but two schools,
or two religions:
that which puts the Bible above everything,
and that which puts something above the Bible."
— Louis Gaussen 1790-1863
Perhaps, all things considered it was the most merciful thing for the child. God would be the one to know that, not you or I.
Romans 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why hast thou made me thus?
Good works ultimately come from God (Philippians 2:13), yes, but God says that they are necessary for our salvation, as the Gospel teaches (#6283). Read it, every once in a while.
Quote-o-rama....
The quote does not say what you want it to say.
That about sums up much of FullCourt's prooftexting.
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