Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will
Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 5,141-5,1605,161-5,1805,181-5,200 ... 12,901-12,906 next last
To: jo kus
Neither church can be faulted entirely, and both still remain part of the Apostolic Church established by Christ

Correct. And the issue of papacy is not whether the Orthodox recognize the Pope, but what is the scope of his jurisdiction. Until we clarify the jurisdiction, we cannot even tackle the theology. But what most people fail to understand is that we are all part of one Church, given to the Apostles, and our divisions are within the Church; until such divisions are resolved, we cannot share communion. That's a world of difference with the 'church' created by a renegade priest in Germany.

5,161 posted on 04/26/2006 6:33:39 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5154 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; AlbionGirl; qua; blue-duncan; Frumanchu
Perhaps you need to remember that Protestants are ever changing and fallible men too. The only difference is that the Protestants left the Church to be come self-righteous.

I do remember that Protestants are ever changing and fully fallible. The difference I see is that Protestants put God's word over and above men. Other non-Protestant groups put men over and above God's word. If anyone is self-righteous, who would that be?

5,162 posted on 04/26/2006 6:34:27 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5121 | View Replies]

To: jo kus; HarleyD
God doesn't give ALL men equal gifts, according to the Church - thus, we can presume that God does not give all men "faith"...

The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. (1 Cor 3:8). And We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. (Rom 12:6)

He doesn't, it must be based on man's rejection of God

Correct!

5,163 posted on 04/26/2006 6:43:10 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5155 | View Replies]

To: Forest Keeper; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; AlbionGirl; qua; blue-duncan; Frumanchu
The difference I see is that Protestants put God's word over and above men. Other non-Protestant groups put men over and above God's word. If anyone is self-righteous, who would that be?

The Church did not put men over and above God's word. Where do you find that? Self-rigtheousness comes from each individual believer being his or her own "pope." The Pope does not make the Church; the concensus patrum does. The Church did not re-invent the wheel: the same faith and knowledge of truth given to the Apostles at the Pentecost is what led to the Christian canon you call the Bible. We did not change or place the Scripture into the third drawer and made up our own rules. We are practicing what was practiced in the first century AD onward.

5,164 posted on 04/26/2006 6:49:53 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5162 | View Replies]

To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
While I do rely on God's promise of eternal life, AND that He won't take it away from me once I have it, I don't think His promises are kept out of a duty owed by Him to me for something I did with my free will. I see the salvation promises as being one way. So, yes, I would see it as God giving up control if He "risked" losing one of His elect to himself

Then how is He omnipotent (using your own argument)?

But I think you are mistaken aboyut not letting you go. Matthew 21:43 says


5,165 posted on 04/26/2006 6:53:53 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5156 | View Replies]

Comment #5,166 Removed by Moderator

To: qua

"We goofy Protestants thought Christ made the Church."

You keep reading scripture you are out of here.


5,167 posted on 04/26/2006 7:07:39 PM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5166 | View Replies]

To: jo kus; kosta50; HarleyD; Forest Keeper; qua; AlbionGirl; blue-duncan
God doesn't give ALL men equal gifts, according to the Church - thus, we can presume that God does not give all men "faith". But if He doesn't, it must be based on man's rejection of God.

So you're saying faith is a reward for not rejecting God.

But why would someone NOT reject God if they had no faith to begin with?

5,168 posted on 04/26/2006 7:19:12 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5155 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; HarleyD; qua; Forest Keeper; AlbionGirl
Self-righteousness comes from each individual believer being his or her own "pope."

No man is "pope." That's the point you miss.

5,169 posted on 04/26/2006 7:24:19 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5164 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; AlbionGirl; qua; Frumanchu

"Self-rigtheousness comes from each individual believer being his or her own "pope.""

Self-righteousness comes from each individual person, including believers, being his/her own god! You give "pope" too much credit. Self-righteousness is sin.


5,170 posted on 04/26/2006 7:43:04 PM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5164 | View Replies]

To: Agrarian
It is no exaggeration to say that if one were to attend an Orthodox Vespers and Matins daily for a year (with the services in a language one understands, of course), with not a single service ever being preached and without reading a single book, one would probably have a better understanding of Christian theology than the average person with an M.Div.

I don't doubt that for a moment. After all, theology is secondary to liturgy; it is through liturgical union with Christ that we know the Word, Who is Christ Himself. An attempt to discover Christ through scripture alone is about as fruitful as trying to impregnate one's wife through e-mail. See my 4882 for elaboration.

5,171 posted on 04/26/2006 7:47:08 PM PDT by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5157 | View Replies]

To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan
Protestants put God's word over and above men. Other non-Protestant groups put men over and above God's word. If anyone is self-righteous, who would that be?

Have you been able to show in Scriptures alone that Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura, two pillars of Protestantism, are to be found in God's Word? It seems that you are defining your word and opinion to = God's Word.

Regards

5,172 posted on 04/26/2006 7:48:39 PM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5162 | View Replies]

To: Forest Keeper
I do NOT think the system is set up as follows: God gives 10 units of grace to Jim, and also 10 units to Bob.

I don't think God gives everyone equal graces, but He gives everyone sufficient grace to turn to Him in some manner. Otherwise, this would nullify Scripture that says "God desires all men to be saved", among others like it.

Anyway, God gives the "X" amount to all of His elect, and He does not for everyone else. Man contributes nothing to his own salvation. It is all in God's hands.

I see it in a reverse order. Since God wants all men to be saved, HE does not "pick and choose" which will be tossed out based on no evidence of response. Thus, God foresees those who reject Him outright. The rest will be predestined. This fits well with God being positively in control of the elect and ALLOWING the condemned to condemn themselves. IF you say God chooses the condemned, you say God is the author of sin - which is not a Christian concept.

it doesn't seem to me that God would be in full control if He ever rolled the dice on anything.

LOL! Why wouldn't God be in control when He foresees all of our actions and is able to aid those who even try slightly to come to God?

Finally, I believe that God retains His justice because He has no duty to save anyone.

Strictly speaking, if God did not present any Scriptures, you'd be correct. But He has PROMISED He desires men to be saved! All of them. He DIED for ALL of them. He binds HIMSELF to the salvation of mankind - if you believe that God is righteous. Thus, God presents the ability for ALL men to be saved - if only they do not "close their eyes to the light".

To me, this sounds like a very passive control, at best. God watches and knows what man will do, but God does not intervene, at least very much.

God is more active than a baseball owner watching a game. We require His graces daily. We rely on Him for every good gift. But this doesn't do away with our ability to refuse Him. People do it all of the time - even regenerated people.

That He died must have been necessary, in view of His justice, or else He committed suicide unnecessarily. It would make no sense for Him to give up His life if a viable alternative was some other way.

As I said, God is not bound by necessity in the HOW in saving us. Nor did Christ commit suicide since He didn't kill Himself. He gave Himself up in obedience to the Father, an expression of ultimate love. God went to the extreme to show His love for us.

God has no such duty to save.

He does if He binds Himself to such a task - which He did in the Garden of Eden. IF God is righteous, we trust that He will execute this promise.

Yes, there is scripture on this, but we have an honest disagreement on the subject of the judgment, in cases like this. Based on the context, I believe that judgment can be either for salvation or for other rewards once in heaven.

So how would you explain the many verses of Scripture that rules out the "judgment based on rewards within heaven"? There are quite a few that make it clear that judgment is for heaven or hell. Some of these verses are spoken to CHRISTIANS, the "saved"! What then?

In my view, there is no such thing as "man's morality". There is only God's.

I think you mean that man's morality has little worth when it contradicts God's morality. Man has many ideas of morality - some really think it is OK to kill unborn kids...

Regards

5,173 posted on 04/26/2006 8:13:12 PM PDT by jo kus (I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart...Psalm 119:32)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5156 | View Replies]

To: jo kus; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg

Sola Fide; Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Sola Scriptura; 2 Tim. 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


5,174 posted on 04/26/2006 8:29:28 PM PDT by blue-duncan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5172 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; jo kus
[From "I believe: A Short Exposition of the Orthodox Doctrine"] "I believe that God created neither death nor suffering nor evil. Evil has no hypostasis or existence as such. Evil is the absence of good; death is the absence of life."

If this is what the Orthodox believe, then I was mistaken. Thank you for clearing that up.

[later in the work:] "However, God wished that, after a fashion, we too should be His co-workers in His creation and be responsible for our own eternal destiny. God knows in His infinite wisdom how to transform the causes of evil into that which is profitable for man's salvation. "

This is what I thought the Catholic and Orthodox position was. Thanks for clearing that up, too.

5,175 posted on 04/26/2006 9:12:48 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5127 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; jo kus; HarleyD
[On whether the flood actually happened:] It's irrelevant, because the biblical account of it has a message and that message says that God repented (KJV), or was "sorry" (NAS, NKJV), was "grieved" (NIV), that God "took it to heart" (LXX), that He had made people who "turned out" wicked!

In your belief, when God sins like this, to whom does He confess? :)

If you believe that, then why was He angry with wicked men -- they turned out exactly as He ordained them to be! Where is their fault? They are just passive "tools" and fools in your vision of God's creation.

They weren't just passive tools, they were very active tools, and responsible for their own sins. If we remain in the state of our birth, then we will be wicked. God has every right to be angry, because He is not the author of sin. Men (and satan) are.

[In addition to wicked men, Genesis 6:6 states that God decided to destroy all innocent animal life as well. I wouldn't call that kind.]

Perhaps you would like an apology? :) Besides, cats always have it coming to them anyway.

5,176 posted on 04/26/2006 10:28:24 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5132 | View Replies]

To: blue-duncan; jo kus
Eph. 2:8-9 continues:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

This is the Catholic teaching, that we are saved through faith and should follow up with good works.

2 Tim. 3:15-17 does not say anything about sola scriptura. It says that scripture is profitable, at least for the clergy. We agree.

5,177 posted on 04/26/2006 11:04:14 PM PDT by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5174 | View Replies]

To: kosta50; jo kus
Everyone believed in those days. I don't think there was a single account of an atheist. The righteous of the OT were chosen by God to do specific tasks, just as our Lord Jesus Christ chose His apostles, including +Paul.

EVERYONE believed in those days??? In what? Was one either an atheist or a believer?. I must not know what you mean. Did God go around in the OT and slay true believers? Was Judas a believer?

Christ specifically went to pull the rigtheous out of hell -- but one can ask if they were rigtheous, why were they in hell to begin with? And why were Adam and Eve among the righteous?

Those are good questions. I have to admit that before this thread I really knew nothing about this whole idea of Christ going down into hell. Is there a difference between hell and purgatory? My vague understanding of purgatory is that it is not as bad as the classical "hell", and is where most saved people go for "refinement" before they are worthy of going to heaven. If they are different places, then I don't understand why icons of the faith like Peter and John the Baptist would go there instead of purgatory, or really, why not straight into heaven?

Yet, clearly, Job is not portrayed as someone who was anything but perfect in God's eyes.

Well, when you put it that way, I think everyone can agree. :)

5,178 posted on 04/27/2006 12:03:20 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5133 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
[From Calvin's Commentary:] "It was then, for the first time, that the Spirit was seen descending on him; not that he had formerly been destitute of him, but because he might be said to be then consecrated by a solemn rite. "

Thanks Harley, that helps. I think I also read somewhere that the Baptism was sort of legally required to make Him an "officially" recognized priest. Not sure about that one though. :)

5,179 posted on 04/27/2006 12:16:15 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5134 | View Replies]

To: Forest Keeper
Besides, cats always have it coming to them anyway.

LOL. Deserves got nothing to do with it.


5,180 posted on 04/27/2006 12:16:49 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5176 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 5,141-5,1605,161-5,1805,181-5,200 ... 12,901-12,906 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson