Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Don't we all?
The difference is, when I need a drink, I get a drink. Unlike Calvin, I do not rewrite the gospel to suit my therapeutic needs.
It is titled "Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism", and contains a LARGE number of papers on various themes. Enjoy
http://www.marquette.edu/maqom/
Brother in Christ
No, we don't all "need a drink."
But if you do, I understand.
Thanks jo, I merely "skimmed" it and it looks like somthing really worth reading. Much obliged.
Kosta
I have no standing or right to have any problem with how God set up the universe. If the Bible said that one out a thousand would be saved, then I would be "fine" with that. We all have a specific duty to take care of our children, God has no such duty to every person. Out of grace and mercy, He takes care of His elect.
You find nothing wrong with God placing his own children in a situation where they are tempted and, when they act on their temptation despite your warning, you cast them out of your home and let them fend for themselves; you not only punish them, but their offspring for all generations too!
Yes, Adam and Eve were punished for their sin. But, if you believe that they were still ultimately saved, as I do, then God could not have abandoned them forever, or else they could not have been saved. If I felt the need to blame someone for the sinful nature I had at birth, it would not be God, it would be Adam. Praise God that nevertheless, He has mercy on some.
If God created laws that govern billions of galaxies to move effortlessly and gracefully as island universes, He can integrate our decisions and weave whatever He wants with our free will in order to save those who are willing to be saved by choosing to come to Him.
I'll grant that God COULD do it that way, but I maintain that this would diminish His sovereignty and glory. With your puzzle analogy, we decide the shape of the pieces and then God has to make them fit. Of course He COULD, but that doesn't match your earlier statement that everything comes from God. If it did, then God would shape the pieces Himself.
So when God drowns His children because they turned wicked, we don't follow in His footsteps? I would venture to say that you would NEVER punish your children for their transgression as God punished His. Yet you would say that His is a just punishment and yours would be unjust, by necessity.
Yes, Adam and Eve were punished for their sin. But, if you believe that they were still ultimately saved, as I do, then God could not have abandoned them forever, or else they could not have been saved
We don't treat and punish our children as God did His. We don't kick out children out into the cold and let them fetch for themselves. We would call that child abuse in modern parlance.
With your puzzle analogy, we decide the shape of the pieces and then God has to make them fit
He gave us reason and freedom to make decisions. He knows the shape we will choose before we made it. But, just as you say that He allows evil but is not the author of it, you should be consistent and posit that He allows free will but does not make the choice for us, whether good or evil.
OK, Kosta, fair enough. Sorry for the additional posting I've done, I just got to this one. :)
I know, you are much beter than I at these things, always taking time and making sure you reply. THank you for your consideration.
"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace" -- Luke 11:21
Christ is our strong man; we are His goods. ... We are His. God wants us secure and confident in the gift He's given us. We are instructed to trust Him.
Amen, Dr. E. I am so thankful to God for showing me this faith of security, confidence, and trust. God will always take care of those He owns.
1 Cor. 6:19-20a : 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. ...
And yet we are accused of a false security, because no one can know. Such an idea renders God's promises meaningless. Such an idea holds no trust. I believe I will stick with what the scripture actually says, not what fallible men say it says. :)
Since you are the expert on Luther and Calvin, please give a quote from either or both men that states clearly and unambiguously that God is the author, creator, and cause of evil.
"please give a quote from either or both men that states clearly and unambiguously that God is the author, creator, and cause of evil."
Gen 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Man is less than God in all his ways, ergo evil, even Adam, who only approximated God, i.e. made in His image.
That is not a quote from Luther or Calvin, unless you are now claiming that both men wrote the bible.
I posted: "please give a quote from either or both men [Luther or Calvin or both] that states clearly and unambiguously that God is the author, creator, and cause of evil."
It is not my burden to do your apologetics for you. Your position is that Calvin and Luther claim that God is the author, creator and source of evil. Please back up your claim with clear and unambiguous quotes from either or both men's writings.
I gave you five links which detail the rebuttal.
We have discussed TULIP many times in this on-going discussion, but there is nothing in those 5 doctrines that says God creates evil because it is his will and pleasure to create evil. So please supply the details that prove that Luther and Calvin contend that God is the author of evil. That doesn't mean a dissertation. One or two quotes will do the job just fine.
Somewhere way back during the time I was on vacation, the Religious Moderator asked us to wrap up this thread. We are now over 4,600 posts of various positions and I do believe, like Luther and Erasmus which started this, we have all respectfully documented our theological views (over and over and over). I do believe we should respect the RM position and I would request the RM lock this thread so that our positions remain until judgment day or the hard drive crashes; whichever comes first.
Thanks everyone for their contributions and I look forward to pointing out the theological errors on other threads. ;O)
But if anyone should sacrilegiously object that little praise is due to God for His goodness, which He is constrained to preserve, shall we not readily reply that His inability to do evil arises from His infinite goodness and not from the impulse of violence? Therefore if a necessity of doing well impairs not the liberty of the divine will in doing well if the devil, who cannot but do evil, nevertheless sins voluntarily; who then will assert that man sins less voluntarily, because he is under a necessity of sinning? This necessity Augustine everywhere maintains, and even when he was pressed . . . he confidently expressed himself in these terms: "By means of liberty it came to pass that man fell into sin; but now the penal depravity consequent on it, instead of liberty, has introduced necessity."
As the master Calvin says, God is unable to do evil.
Oh brilliant! Lock this one so that we can continue on another one — this is a Forum for discussions; if people want to continue a discussion, why lock it? Anyone is free to come or leave as he/she pleases. When there are no more interested individuals to engage in a discussion, the thread will die a natural death; no need to kill it.
Besides, what difference does it make if we continue to beat the same dead horse on one or a dozen threads in succession?
I urge the Religion Moderator to leave this discussion until its flames have extinguished themselves naturally.
I have been watching this thread from time to time and must say as how impressed I've been at its staying power...and usually polite discussion (at least at the moments I've checked on it.)
Applause.
Of course, I have decided to subscribe to the Titus 3:9 club, which means all I will do is watch and be amazed...
Good find. But, I believe the Calvinists will tell you that this somehow "diminishes" His sovereignty.
Second that. Why lock it? I'd be happy to defend my posts here till kingdom come.
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