Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
My father died on Good Friday, much too young.
We will see them again one day.
Do you realize that EVERYONE says what you are? Jehovah Witnesses, Unitarians, Docetists, Arians, and any other group of people looking at the Book? We ALL have our perceptions of what God is trying to say...
Yes, I would expect everyone to say what I am saying. Part of it comes down to what "plain meaning" really means. I know what I think it means, and am very comfortable with that position. Other persons or organizations will have to decide that for themselves.
These people [various heretics] don't think that God could suffer and die, so any "clear" Scripture is obviously a spiritual, not literal meaning. It is the Catholic faith that you draw the majority of your paradigms from.
In this case I'll take it because Catholics are right about whether Jesus suffered and died on the cross. In addition, that also happens to be exactly what the text says happened. You could line up a hundred third graders, read them the "death" verses, and then ask them what they thought happened. Virtually all, if not all, would say that Jesus died.
Who said that everything must be written down for it to be official?
Generically, I suppose no one. When the boss gives an oral order, it's official! However, I don't see the Roman Catholic Church as my boss, so I don't see its oral orders as official. Written orders, though, are better because they better stand the test of time. Luke agrees with me with the first words of his Gospel. He said that he was writing so that the audience could be CERTAIN.
Many of our ancient manuscripts of history or biographies are written hundreds of years AFTER the fact.
That's right, which is one reason I find the Bible to be much more reliable.
Do you think people 1500 years ago learned by reading books?
No, during all of those years everyone was dependent on fallible men to relay the scriptures. Just by the laws of mathematics, you must agree that heresies were taught by individual clergy here and there. Now with the advent of the printing press and greater global education, many more people can be like the beloved Bereans.
For example, when Paul talks about "knowing" the Lord, he is not discussing "book" knowledge, but experiential knowledge attained from a personal relationship.
Yes, that's true, but I'm sure you would agree that the experiential knowledge would have to be in accordance with, or consistent with, what is in the Bible.
Catholics are taught that the elect are predestined irresistibly by God. He actively brings His elect to Him WITHOUT overriding their will. This is an important thing to keep in balance - both realities must be maintained.
I don't understand how the concepts of irresistibility and free will can work together here. With free will, anything can and does happen. This is not the case if predestination is irresistible.
I don't have much to add except the following quote, by John Piper, I believe: "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him."
The reason this strikes me as so profound is that I think the history of man is the history of his dissatisfaction with God, and the attendant desire to compensate while still pretending to be satisfied. Does that make any sense?
And to you, dear, Dr. E., I say Amen to your "we shall see them again comment."
Dr. E, a while back, in a post to me you made the comment that we we came into the world as human beings, and that we would leave in the same way, and I remarked to you that it touched me quite a bit, though I didn't quite know why.
Since that time, I've come to realize that it is in my brokeness (sp?;word?) that I feel the Power, the Glory and the Love of God, most acutely.
The faith in scientific method is the faith that because things have fallen on earth they will continue to fall on earth. It is so ingrained in you that you don't see it for what it is, a belief.
And offer them a chair and some coffee.
Whoever believes that needs a reality check. I am keenly aware that there are no guarantees and that what we have is here and now; yesterday is gone; next hour, or tomorrow is a maybe. There is no faith in it.
Knowing that gravity is a "property" of matter that affects even light is not faith -- it's a fact. Can matter suddenly change into anti-matter so gravity would become anti-gravity? Probably, but not very likely. That's harly a faith, annalex.
God is not an "observable" phenomenon; nor is He a statistical probability.
I am just not reaching yah...
I am not talking about a particular physical theory. The scientific method is inductive, from observations to theory. The transition from observation, -- any observation, -- to theory -- any theory, -- requires faith.
God is an observable phenomenon in the same way gravity is, by his effects, even outside of the plain observability of the Incarnate Christ.
And you bought into this -- self-loving god AG?
No, I am not reaching you. There is no dispute over gravity. Everyone believes in gravity. Not everyone believes in God. Not everyone who believes in God agrees with others who believe in God. You are comparing apples and oranges.
If the state of natural science instruction were the same as the state of theological instruction not everyone would believe in gravity either, and those who would believe would dispute the particulars. Examples: flight observationally contradicts gravity; the fact that all objects fall with the same acceleration observationally contradicts gravity. The medieval man would have found a belief in God far easier than belief in Newtonian gravity.
This 'self-loving' God, so styled by you, and who you seem repulsed by, seems to me to be indeed a 'self-loving', self-regarding God, as is evidenced by His inability to tolerate the broken covenant between Him and our first parents, Adam and Eve.
I'm not sure what this communication of mine to you is worth, as I don't know whether you believe Adam and Eve to be fable or truth, based on your comments on this thread as regards Scripture. Though, that isn't really a concern of mine, as it's your business, it's just that it seems relevant based on this present discussion.
If you find, this, my, view to be so totally missing the mark or repugnant, that doesn't trouble me in the least, as I have little confidence in your powers of theological analysis, based on your myriad comments to this thread. So, Kosta, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and to wish each other peace.
Is the man Jesus separate from the God Jesus? They are the same person! Thus, when Jesus did something, BOTH natures acted - ...
In that case, it appears you are saying that God could sin. It appears that you are saying that God COULD have turned away from Himself, or else what was the point, as you said. What do you suppose would have happened to Jesus had He decided to sin? For one thing, He would have needed one heck of a shrink. :)
He already foresaw Adam's sin before He even created Adam in time.
I totally agree with you here. So, can you make the leap to saying that God ordained that Adam sin, before He made him in time?
My personal view is that God, from within eternity, sees all actions and takes into account these actions by granting His graces to ensure that the final result of His will is met. Thus, God is not "waiting" on us. He sees something and acts on it - but before it happens. Thus, He is the driving force AND we have free will.
OK, thank you for your view. I would respectfully disagree because God sees first, and then acts. Yes, this is all before anything actually happens in real time, but it still has God making decisions based on His foreknowledge. Therefore, when the Book of Life was written God looked ahead to see who would accept Him and wrote down those names. I see it in reverse order, that God wrote down the names first, and then made sure that every one of those people would be worthy of heaven upon their earthly deaths. This He did not on a day to day basis during our lives, but it was completed before the foundation of the world. From our POV, all that is left is the playing out, although FOR US, all is new.
The God of Love condemning His creation for not doing what that man CANNOT do to begin with! What a Just Judge your God is... Sorry, you need to put things in perspective here.
Yes, my God is the ultimate judge of justice. Adam sinned and condemned himself to death. Likewise, it was perfectly just that all of his progeny also be condemned to death. That is justice, as God defines it, not me. Fortunately, God also has mercy on some, and chooses to save them. I would say you are the one enamored with the US Justice System, since you seem to think that man's justice should apply to God.
What is God doing for you when you choose against Him permanently? Nothing, right? He just steps out of the way. In our belief, God actively steps in and prevents that from ever happening for His elect. That's DOING something, and it's not only for Himself, it is out of His love for His elect.
How does God treat His beloved children under your view? He lets them walk straight off a cliff because He loves them so much, right? I would never do that to my children, and I don't think God would ever do that to His elect. I would infinitely prefer to be a little lead soldier in heaven, than left to my own devices (even with help) and wind up in hell.
My dear sir! I would never compare Luther to equus caballus. I might compare John Calvin and some of his disciples to equus asinus, but that's a horse of a different color...
Flying does not contradict gravity. Anything that flies does so temporarily, as long as there is active force involved to counter gravity.
Equal acceleration is observed in vacuum. I doubt that it was known to anyone in the Midle Ages. They would surely think a rock would fall faster than a feather -- and that is true as long as the effects of air resistance are present.
A medieval man would have no problems accepting gravity. He knew just as we do that jumping off a great height is not a good idea. He accepted God on authority of the Church.
So, in your belief, a perfect God is the author of good and "bad?"
self-regarding God, as is evidenced by His [sic] inability to tolerate the broken covenant between Him and our first parents, Adam and Eve
So, your God is the creator of good as well as "bad" and He is also unable is some respects? If you believe that God is intolerant of Adam's and Eve's transgression, you must believe that it was done against His will. Correct? Or did God set them up for a failure?
I don't know whether you believe Adam and Eve to be fable or truth, based on your comments on this thread as regards Scripture
What I believe is that God gives us many treasures, and choices, and that He has endowed us with the ability to live a virtuous life, but we choose not to. In that sense, we are all Adam and Eve, disobeying God on a daily basis. We know what is good and we know what we should not partake of. Yet we do partake of that which we should not.
And just like Adam, we blame God or, like Eve, we blame the devil, for our decision. But we never blame ourselves. In that sense, the story of the Garden of Eden is playing itself out every day in every human life on earth, past, present and future.
I have little confidence in your powers of theological analysis, based on your myriad comments to this thread. So, Kosta, we'll just have to agree to disagree, and to wish each other peace
I confess my ignorance and I confess my doubts. I am glad others are perfect. I wish you peace.
Before I can answer that, you will have to answer me how can I do anything God did not "ordain" me to do. If He "ordained" me to choose against Him, where is my fault?
I was trying to figure out how Jesus could have spoken through His lips sometimes as God, and sometimes as a man. When He initially prayed to have the cup taken away, that was as a man. When He said "I and the Father are one", that was as God. I thought that meant there must be some element of mixing, without there being a dilution of, or affront to, either nature. How can one mouth speak from two completely separate natures? Today, there are medical conditions that describe just such a thing! :)
That's how I see it, Jo, but I am sure FK will say it's not so, just as he keeps reminding us that (1) If God ordains something He is not the source of it or responsible for it; yet, Calvinists will tell you that each and every one of us is exactly as God ordained! (2) He will tell you that giving us freedom of will somehow "diminishes" Him, but fails to consider that perhaps our free will is exactly what God ordained in order for us to be able to love Him, freely, because love that is not free is no love. ...
You are correct, it is not so. :) God does not judge anyone for salvation based on what he can or cannot do. We do not believe in a works-based salvation.... God chose His elect before "the beginning". Those chosen will be saved and the others will not. He had no duty to choose any of us so all of your human applications of doctrines of "fairness" do not apply. God's ways are not our ways.
(1) If God ordains something SINFUL, such as the betrayal by Judas, then He is not the author or responsible because He allows it rather than causes it. I have already made my case for this. If God ordains something GOOD, then He is the author. ... Yes, each of us is exactly as God ordained us to be. Some will be saved, some will not.
(2) Generally, God did give us the freedom to sin, the precise reason for which I cannot be certain. Perhaps it was to show us our need for Him and that we must be completely dependent on Him. Perhaps it was simply His will in how to order the universe and nothing more need be said. In any event, the appearance of sin could not have been an accident, as you seem to imply. ... When you say that the only true love is free will love, you continue to mix man's and God's points of view. In our human experience, we do experience "free will" to love, and we experience that it is real. For us, it is true. However, from God's POV, it is res judicata, the thing has already been decided. His chosen elect will love Him and He will love them.
[Jo Kus to Kosta:] "You can give a bible to an atheist and will he necessarily turn to God? Not if his heart and mind is closed to the possibility."
A false comparison to Protestantism. None of us believe that. The Bible isn't faith itself, that only comes from God. The Bible is the tangible authority of the faith, on earth.
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