Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[Kolokotronis]

This is really a Baptist belief? I thought someone was kidding here on FR, honest.

[annalex]

Shhh. It is a secret belief. I only know because of my Baptist family.

[AlbionGirl]

We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men.

That's so moving. It speaks so much to the importance of not corrupting an individual's relationship with God.

This thread has not resulted in much discussion of the posted article.

Do you guys really think that Luther's ideas on enslavement of man to sin are really well thought through? He seems to me to fit his own description of Erasmus, i.e. he seems also to me like a sleeping and dreaming man who blurts out first yes, and then no.

But beyond that, the discussion early on took on the idea of whether God was capable of wrath or not, and that started me thinking on a couple of passages in Scripture which trouble me.

The first, is the passage on Jacob and Esau. It certainly can lead one to thinking that God is capable of a kind of capricious partiality. Erasmus' explanation that God hated Esau because he was aware of his future sinful life, makes some sense to me, but it doesn't do much for assuaging the uncomfortable feeling that this passage holds for me. The idea that he will have mercy on who he will have mercy is perfectly understandble, but if I'm predestined for hell or don't know that I at least have a shot at being saved, how can I not fall into despair?

The second Scripture is the one in which Jesus calls the non-jewish woman a dog. He does finally extend his Grace to her after she fully prostrates herself (I understand and accept that part), but that passage always left me with the sense that gentiles were of second importance to Christ. I always admired the woman in the Scripture, because she was the epitome of humility. Why do you suppose He called her a dog, that couldn't have been a neutral term, could it? Is her humility and persistence the moral of the story?

[Titanites]

we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it

What were the Baptists reforming then?

[blue-duncan]

"I'd be interested to see any credible historical evidence of the "trail of blood" theory of Baptist denomination, as I have heard the claim before, likewise without much beyond the florid eloquence of Spurgeon to buck it up"

I just gave it to you in post #303. How much more do you want. Don't you believe me? Huh?

[blue-duncan]

"Shhh. It is a secret belief. I only know because of my Baptist family."

Yeh, but I bet they didn't teach you the secret Baptist handshake.

[Buggman]

I can attest from my interactions with you here that you do not belong to the Catholic Church.

I have never claimed to be a member of the Roman Catholic church (just the opposite), so I'm not sure what you are trying to get at.

[annalex]

In 303 you said that there is a ministry starting with John the Baptist, then Appollos, then Priscilla and Aquilla, then underground. At a minimum, I'd like to know what evidence is there of such a ministry, what was their link to John the Baptist, why were they not in communion with Rome, what they taught, why did they go underground, and how did they manage to sustain a communion while underground.

[annalex]

I listed points where we are in agreement.

[HarleyD]

I think you ask some fair questions AG. I've noticed there has been little discussion of the article. Erasmus point from the Roman Catholic position was that man has free will and thus capable of making decisions (e.g. Mary freely choosing to have the Lord Jesus). Luther, OTOH, argued that man is totally incapable of making a choice. God has to release him from his bondage instilling him with faith to come to Him.

This to me isn't any thing different than Pelagius and Augustine argument over Augustine's prayer in my tagline. Pelagius felt the prayer was absurd for man already should have the capablity to give to God what He commands. Augustine, like Luther, felt everything comes from God. God commands us and then He provides. He provides grace, faith, everything. There is nothing that you have or are that hasn't been given to you by God. The simple fact that you desire to know God is a gift to you given to you by God. All who believe that Jesus is the Christ are born of God (1 John 5:1). You cannot be unborn.

Christians are presumptuous to think that everyone if given the "choice" want to go to heaven. This makes it out to be some intellectual work that someone must do which is nonsense. It is simply that there are children of wrath and children of God. Why this is I don't know. Esau was a child of wrath. He despised his birthright. He didn't want it. Jacob was a child of God. He desired the birthright (in very unReformed speak).

I believe the scripture you are referring to is the following:

Mat 15:22-28 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us." But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

Many commentaries devote pages to this passage. Our Lord Jesus was here to die for His elect but while on earth His role was as a prophet sent to the House of Israel. In this manner was He addressing the woman. It is also noted that our Lord knew the perfect way to reach into people's hearts and draw them out. Although His response may seem harsh to us (almost cruel) He drew this lady's into more and more confrontation until her faith was established.

It is a mystery to me and others as to how God instills faith in us through His word but we know faith is a gift from God. This is a case in point here. By the time our Lord Jesus was complete, He could say "your faith is great" to this woman. He had instilled faith into her.

[blue-duncan]

If I told you then it wouldn't be a secret and the rest of my Baptist buddies would start calling me Roger Williams II.

[annalex]

Thought so. Of course.

[Buggman]

I apologize, it may just be the cold fogging my brain, but I'm honestly not following you here. Could you please start over and explain what you're trying to say more fully?

[HarleyD]

Well to be perfectly up front, I'm not a "real" Baptist. I attend a Southern Baptist Church but we are not members nor do we plan to become members.

I'm not sure of the context of Spurgeon's remarks. My GUESS is that he is eluding to the fundamental principles of Christianity (e.g. evangelism, charity, helping the poor, etc). These principles are part of the universal church and TRUE believers have always believed them. Consequently I BELIEVE he was referring to the true invisible church apart from the Roman Catholic and the Reformation Protestants. I could be wrong.

Baptists are notorious for focusing on evangelism to the exclusion of doctrine. Consequently most Baptist churches have very loose Statement of Faiths. They're also, for the most part, self-substaining with little hierarchy.

In the History of the Reformation series it briefly talked about the Anabaptists and I wondered if this was the beginnings of the Baptist belief. If you read the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1610 you'll see there is little difference between their Reformed beliefs and the Westminster Confession of Faith. However, unlike the Presbyterians and Lutherans, Baptists believe in Credobaptism (immersion) verses Paedobaptism (covenantal infant baptism). There are other differences too much to go into here but they hold to some of the more fundamental principles.

Like many of the Protestant churches today, Baptists are losing their original Reformed doctrine. You will find many of them arguing the Roman Catholic position of Erasmus of man's free will. This wasn't how it originally was but it is how it is today.

Religion comes in two flavors; Augustine or Pelagius, Luther or Erasmus, Reformed (monergism) and all else (synergism). There are only TWO religions in this world. (Click on my name for further explanation.) That's how it is.

[blue-duncan]

"What were the Baptists reforming then?"

Knowing Baptists, they were probably reforming other Baptists, just as they are today. To paraphrase scripture "where two or three Baptists are gathered there are at least five or six interpretations".

[annalex]

Nothing sinister. If you follow back the relevant replies, you will see that I explained the relationship between scripture interpretation and the Catholic or Orthodox, (together, Apostolic) Church. To the remark that surely even Catholics have independent individual opinion I agreed, saying that as Catholic I read the scripture with my own brain, but I will stand corrected if I discover myself at odds with what the Chruch teaches, and I will study and adopt the Catholic teaching.

Then a poster said that he, being Protestant would do the same. He capitalized Church but he meant his protestant communion. I then said, somewhat coyly, that the Church has one and only correction to all Protestants, confess the sins, repent, get the full canonical Bible and come to the Holy Communion next Sunday. Someone pinged you, in the middle of your cold, and you know the rest.

I understand, of course, that many Protestants believe with you that they have the full Canon and that they have confessions, and many, like you, studied the Bible, including possibly the Deuterocanon, in the original languages. Not wanting to enter a discussion specific to your Messianic Jewish community on a thread evolving in a far more general direction, I decided to point out where I appreciate the effort of groups such as Jews for Jesus and leave it at that.

My disagreements with you fall along different lines than with mainstream Protestants, but I do not want to evade discussing those when a good opportunity arises.

[kosta50]

No one, nor is he any better than the rest of us. We are all sinners saved by grace

In that case why are you mocking him? For, if you are mocking him, you are mocking yourself. +Peter, of all others, had a family to feed. So, why are you assailing him for having gone back to them?

[blue-duncan]

These are the classic Baptist Distinctives that just about every Baptist church adheres to. Most evangelical Baptist churches also have a covenant and strict articles of faith that except for the believers baptism by immersion and congregational form of church government and the independance of the local church would be found in most Calvinistic churches.

What do Baptists Believe?

Baptists first hold to the Fundamentals of the Christian Faith. All true Christian denominations hold to the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Baptists believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ, The deity of Christ, The Trinity, God’s Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence, etc. All true Baptists must hold to the Baptist distinctives. Baptists may differ over Calvinism vs. Arminianism, Worship Styles, Bible Translations, etc., but they must adhere to the following to be truly Baptist.

B Biblical Authority.

The Bible is the verbally and plenarily inspired Word of God. II Timothy 3:16, II Peter 1:21 The Bible is without error. “The Bible is our final authority for all matters of faith and practice”, Dr. Jerry Moore. The Word of God is God’s direct revelation to us and thus our supreme authority in all matters.

A Autonomy of the Local Church.

Matthew 18:15-18 Autonomy means self governing. The church governs itself and its members. There are at least 3 main styles of self rule; Shepherd rule, Board rule, and Congregational rule. Shepherd rule is where the Pastor leads the congregation and makes the majority of the decisions. Board rule or Elder rule is where the Deacon board, Elder board, Trustee board, with or sometimes without the Pastor makes the majority of the decisions. The third style is the Congregational rule; the members of the church vote and make the majority of the decisions. Some churches use a combination of these styles or sometimes allow an Administrator to make some decisions. In all cases, the local church governs itself. The local church is not governed by a Convention, Presbytery, Synod, Council, Etc. Some churches voluntarily join a convention that doesn’t rule them, but helps support them such as the Southern Baptist Convention, Conservative Baptist Convention, Etc., while they retain their independence.

P Priesthood of the Believer.

We have access into the throne room of heaven. Our lives are to be our sacrifice. Romans 12:1,2 The priest conducted the sacrifices and made the petitions for the people in the Old Testament. With the covenant of grace, Jesus paid the price for our sins, we are made the priests and our lives are to be a living sacrifice to God. We have direct access into the throne room of heaven! Hebrews 10:19 (side note, this is why we are not Catholic, we can pray to God directly without going to confession)

T Two Ordinances.

1. Baptism. Romans 6:1-7 We believe in full immersion Baptism. Since, we are dead to sin, we are to be fully immersed. A burial involves more than sprinkling of a little dirt on the head of the corpse. Even as a dead animal is put completely under the ground, we believe in that full immersion symbolizes our death to sin. (side note, this is what makes the Baptists distinct from the Methodists and Presbyterians who sprinkle)

2. Communion. I Corinthians 11:23-34. The Lord’s Supper is a symbol lesson of what Jesus Christ did on the Cross of Calvary.

I Individual Soul Liberty.

Each one of us will have to give an account of ourselves to God. We need to be the judge of one another. Matthew 7:1 We shouldn’t enforce our rules of legalism on someone else or vice versa. We can and should correct someone if they are in outright sin though. We need to correct our brothers in a loving a manner. We need to speak the truth in love and is best done going to that brother in private. We need to pray first, to make sure that we ourselves aren’t the one in the wrong. Let’s be careful not to judge, but also not to allow sin in the camp either. We need not impede each other’s soul liberty. Some matters like adultery are worth correcting. Some matters like someone who wears a different name brand of jeans than us isn’t.

S Saved Church Membership.

Before anyone can be a member of a Baptist church, they first must be truly saved. Acts 2:47

T Two Officers.

Pastor, which is the same as the overseer or bishop. He is the elder of the church. In other words, the Pastor is the leader of the church. I Timothy 5:17, I Thessalonians 5:12 A Pastor is worthy of respect and deserves to be paid for the work he does. The Pastor is the servant of God who is entrusted with the awesome responsibility of accurately handling the Word of God. He must have the ability to teach and preach.

Deacons are men who exhibit signs of spiritual leadership. The deacons are servants to the Pastors. Acts 6:1-7 The purpose of a deacon is to relieve the burden on the pastor, so the Pastor can devote his time to prayer and ministry of the word.

S Separation of Church and State.

Matthew 22:21 We believe that church and the government are to be separate entities. We should both pay our tithes and our taxes. God takes precedence over the government.

[annalex]

There is an actual semi-historical claim that some Protestant communities make, along the line of what Blue-Duncan alluded to in 303, known as Trail of Blood theory. I was really curious about the historical specifics, if any. From what I know, the moment the specifics are mentioned, the actual excommunicated members purporting to be proto-Baptists turn out mere Arians, monophysites, gnostics, etc. with no theological connection to anything resembling the Reformed theology.

[annalex]

this is why we are not Catholic, we can pray to God directly without going to confession

No, you are not Catholic because there is nothing remotely compatible with apostolic Christianity in these distinctives, aside from the broadest all-Christians tenets listed in the preamble.