Posted on 07/27/2005 1:05:40 PM PDT by GF.Regis
The first commandment is to love God. The second is to love fellow man. One who comes to the house of God and is focused on fellow man is not focused properly. Hence the issues with Sign of Peace and 'versus populum' posture. In some historical contexts they might have worked (the Sign of Peace is an ancient rite). They do not work in today's self-indulgent "horizontalized" context in the West.
Christ answered the issue of adherence to form directly. In the Guests at the Wedding parable (Matthew 22) there is a figure of an improperly dressed guest. Note that he is not the only "bad" guest, as Christ makes clear. He is the only improperly dressed one. And he is the only one at whom the wrath of the Father is directed.
It is a common misconception that since Christ argued so much against the hypocricy of the Pharisees, He must not have cared for the ritualistic form. The Gospel proves otherwise.
I hope this guy is right.
Me too.
During the "Liturgy of the Word" it would not be wrong to argue that the proper position of the Priest is to face the people as one who is teaching them authoritatively from God through Christ.
If this Pope does this I will also hang his picture in my home and revere him for all time.
[sarc]thanks for the flashback...[/sarc]
"I wish I could talk to St. Peter about it and ask his advice, but that's not possible."
Why not?
I am utterly, even deadly serious, because this is actually deadly important.
St. Peter is alive, as are all of the other sainted dead.
If you particularly trust St. Peter, and you have confidence that St. Peter would steer you right, more confidence in St. Peter than anybody else living (or dead), then you can talk to St. Peter.
Do not say "That is impossible" unless you have truly tried to do it.
If you truly try to do it, then you will get what it is you seek from St. Peter.
Don't take my word for it.
Do it.
http://www.maryknoll.com/MARYKNOLL/SOCIETY/mm_capodanno.htm
Another good guy.
Frank
Because in the old days, the priest and the people faced together in the same direction towards God, whereas, now they are turned in towards each other (man centered) and celebrating themselves.
The fact remains, leaving aside all passions and arguments, that Vatican II never decreed that the priest should face the people at Mass.
Shifting roles for Vatican offices
Vatican, Jul. 27 (CWNews.com) - While some officials at the Vatican believe that Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) plans a thorough overhaul of the Roman Curia, some minor changes are already taking place. Effective August 1, the Congregation for the Clergy will have an expanded role, taking over responsibility for some functions previously fulfilled by the Congregation for Divine Worship.
The Congregation for the Clergy will assume responsibilities for cases in which priests or deacons seek a dispensation from the clerical state. Under certain circumstances, a cleric can be released from the vow of celibacy, thus making him free to marry. Handling these cases will bring a substantial increase in the workload of the Congregation for the Clergy.
To date, these cases have been handled by the Congregation for Divine Worship. The dicastery has the authority to rule whether or not, in a particular case, the reasons presented by a petitioner are sufficient to justify dispensation from the vows of ordination. It handles all cases that involving a request for release from clerical obligations-- for both priests and deacons, diocesan or religious, of the Latin or Eastern churches.
The Congregation for the Clergy has, up until now, handled all administrative matters regarding priests and bishops of the Latin rite, with the exception of petitions for dispensation from clerical obligations. As it absorbs this new function, handling such dispensations, the dicastery will also take on oversight for clerics of the Eastern churches. So, in a simplication of Vatican procedures, the Congregation for the Clergy will now handle the full dossier of every priest. The Congregation for the Clergy was created by Pope Paul VI, and has three sections: The Clergy office supervises the spiritual and intellectual formation of priests and deacons; the Catechetical office sets norms for religious instruction; and the Administrative office manages the financial, legal, and medical needs of the clergy. The prefect of the Congregation is Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos (bio - news)-- who has served in that role since 1978. At the age of 76, the Colombian prelate is beyond the usual retirement age, and likely to be replaced soon.
Pope Benedict, who has spoken in the past about the need for greater efficiency in the Roman Curia, has made several modest changes in the operation of Vatican offices. For example, he has given the Congregation for Bishops the oversight for appointment of bishops in Eastern Europe; that function had been held by the Secretariat of State since the time of Pope Pius XII, who saw the need for careful diplomatic scrutiny of episcopal appointments in the Soviet bloc during the years of the Communist regime.
There is considerable speculation in Rome that the Pope will undertake more sweeping changes in the Roman Curia, with several proposals for reorganization already under discussion. The most persistent reports suggest that several pontifical councils might be combined into one office, and perhaps raised to the status of a congregation.
"Because in the old days, the priest and the people faced together in the same direction..."
I agree.
"...towards God,"
I don't know about that.
Where is God?
They may have been facing East, but God is also West (and South and North, and up and down too).
They were facing the altar, which was at the back of the altar area. I don't know that that's "facing God".
Given that the Host is God, it seems to me that wherever the Host is, even if held aloft between the priest and the people, when the people face the host, and when the priest faces the host, they're both still facing God.
I understand the symbolism you are getting at and don't disagree with it.
But there is also symbolism in what I am speaking about too, which should not simply be brushed aside.
"...whereas, now they are turned in towards each other"
That is certainly true.
"(man centered)"
That's not how I see it. I see it as all focused on the Host.
"...and celebrating themselves."
Well, I certainly am not doing THAT at Mass!
"The fact remains, leaving aside all passions and arguments, that Vatican II never decreed that the priest should face the people at Mass."
I agree. It was an unfortunate oversight on my part to have cut that piece of additional text, because it was not related to the question I wished to ask.
"If this Pope does this I will also hang his picture in my home and revere him for all time."
LOL! I hope we get to put our pictures up soon, and for your hubby's sake too.
I grew up in the Church during Vatican II. All of the liturgical changes, and most of the other ones, are crap.
I mean no disrespect, but please spare me. I'm way too far gone to care one way or the other.
I'll think about it. I took the feminine form of his name for my confirmation name. I don't think he would like me. Ever since I got whiff of some hard truths on the Orthodox newsgroup, I found out how mean some of those ancient men were. St. John Chrystostom said terrible things about Jews.
St. Peter would have loved the Jews, but I think he had more important, manly things on his mind than depressed women and their problems.
Like my ex-husband, the church is better off without me. You can all say "good riddance."
I think that the form and the function--in ALL regards with the liturgy, should be congruent.
We must include, then, the overall concepts of "sacred time, sacred space, sacred language, sacred music" in the mixture.
All these concepts serve as a "fence" which protect the liturgy, in a manner of speaking, from deformation.
Well, I think he's part of SOME 'dance team...'
But "antiquinarianism" is an issue with Pope Pius XII, and John XXIII.
Which way Jesus faced at the Last Supper is irrelevant on that count--as WELL as the fact that the Last Supper was not a Mass.
Absolutely correct. The priest both represents God and the people--
simile modo, the choir represents both the Angelic choir and the people.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.