Posted on 04/25/2005 7:11:26 AM PDT by murphE
"Hippolytus was reconciled to the Church just before his matyrdom. He was not separated from the Church on his death.
I would think that Marcel Lefebvre would need to be reconciled with the Church prior to his death in order to be considered for Sainthood."
"Hippolytus of Rome was reconcilled with the Church BEFORE his martrydom. So when he died, he was not at the time considered excommunicated."
You are both correct re Hippolytus, however, Joan of Arc died excommunicate and was still raised to the altars.
There are also other instances of excommunication being lifted posthumously. Notably when Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras lifted the excommunications of Michael Caerularius and Cardinal Humbert after Vatican II.
If a future Papacy were suitably disposed, it would be quite possible for Lefebvre to be considered for Sainthood, although I think the chances are remote.
You must not have seen post #18, which contains this link:
http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_one/Appendix_I.htm
It is a very well-written appendix, and quite worth taking the time to read carefully. It covers the historical reality of the early centuries and shows how our own recent history is not very much different in some ways.
There is a lot to learn from history if one pays attention to what really happened, and does not close his mind preferring instead the slanted commentaries of liberal detractors.
In 1965, when Pope John Paul was still Bishop of Krakow, he discussed the phenomenon now referred to as inculturation with a friend, saying "Certainly we will preserve the basic elements, the bread, the wine, but all else will be changed according to local tradition: words, gestures, colors, vestments, chants, architecture, decor. The problem of liturgical reform is immense."
Is this the quote you mean?
This was of course in reference to the reform of the TLM and the creation of the NO, which was an immense reform. It is not in reference to the "reform of the reform" being called for by Pope Benedict XVI, due to the devastating results of the first reform, which this author is speaking of.
Yes he was, but not by the Pope. Check out his entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
He was eventually found to be innocent of any charges against him, was reestablished to the Alexandrian See and was in full communion with the Catholic Church upon his death. His excommunication by the Arians was invalid and was pronounced such while he was still alive.
There have been conspicuous political motives behind the public image of Lefebvre promoted from the Vatican. He and what he stood for was no different than that of the traditional Church. That was the problem. The New Vatican was desperately trying to shed the trappings of the Faith.
The elephant in the middle of the room here is this: Lefebvre nor his bishops were ever accused of having held or taught any erroneous doctrine. This is of no small significance. The spin job foisted on the faithful in this regard has been scandalous, in the very mildest of terms. Diabolically disoriented is a little closer to the truth.
The "official" story that Lefebvre was some kind of rebel is a big farce. What was the basis of the so-called excommunication? It could be compared to impeaching a member of Congress who is too insistent upon relying on the Constitution while other Congressmen are intent on a reform. Does a conservative who wants to rely on the Constitution commit some kind of crime just because everyone else wants to ignore the Constitution??
I can tell you this much: what the key players are willing to admit behind closed doors would shock your pants off.
Was the Traditional Latin Mass ever abrogated? Can it EVER be abrogated?
Can any pastor of the Church of whatever rank or dignity (including Pope!) ever forbid an ordained Roman Rite priest from celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass? (Hint: take a look at Quo Primum, and the Commission of cardinals called by JPII to study this question.)
Was there really any excommunication of Lefebvre and his 4 bishops?
Yes. Lefebvre was excommunicated for disobeying an order from the Pope not to consecrate any bishops, not for celebrating the Tridentine Mass.
No. He sleeps in the woods. :-)
No. He sleeps in the woods. :-)
She was found not guilty of her accused crimes after her matrydom and her excommunication was declared null and had no effect; there was no excommunication.
You are correct.
Entertaining read. Thanks.
Truth can come in a bucket of cold Holy Water. Thank you for Post #7.
Your links to threads about priests from India and such foreign countries are missing something.
In my experience, these priests come visiting to America incredulous, to see for themselves, because they cannot believe that American laymen are as educated as they sound in the Faith. They ask the same questions again and again: Are you a priest? Did you study in the seminary?
They say that in India, laymen are entirely uninformed about Catholicism and it is a constant struggle to teach the most basic things at their parishes.
There is another story going on.
I know a seminarian who tells how several Indian seminarians came to visit, out of their country. They were very surprised to see how much learning was taking place at this other seminary. Within a year, they escaped their own school and came asking for admission to this other, more scholasitically-oriented school. They were accepted, however, upon closer examination, it was determined that these several 3rd-year students would have to start all over in their studies.
Why? This is the kicker:
In India, the course of studies was not teaching the Catholic Faith. All they were learning there was "inclusiveness," "pastoral sensitivity," "appreciation for other religions." What other religions? Well, in India, most people are Hindu, Buddhist, Mohammedan, and other such non-Catholic sects.
In India, apparently seminary curriculum is directed toward anything BUT the Catholic faith. If PRIESTS being formed there are coming out relatively ignorant of Church teachings, why would they not be surprised to see American laymen who are well read in the Faith?
You mean this? "En arkee ein o logos, kai o logos ein pros ton Theon, kai Theos ein o logos." (I hate transliterated Greek!)
Good luck with your studies, but you should know that Ancient Greek and New Testament Greek (koine) are rather different languages.
The book I am using is geared toward NT Greek, rather than Homeric style Greek.
Thanks for the correction. I too hate the transliteration.
"She was found not guilty of her accused crimes after her matrydom and her excommunication was declared null and had no effect; there was no excommunication."
I don't dispute that at all. But the point is that her excommunication was nullified after her death. The same could also happen for the late Archbishop Lefebvre if a future Pope actually decided to look at the Canon Law of the case.
The fact that he believed there to be a case of necessity (whether he was right or wrong to believe this) prevented him from incurring the penalty of a latae sententiae excommunication. The CIC is so shot full of loopholes, that it is nearly impossible for anyone to incur such an excommunication.
Except for the fact that Lefebvre did indeed incur it.
I've read accounts on both sides of the situation and what I really don't understand is the reason why Lefebvre felt it was an absolute necessity to consecrate the bishops against the explicit wishes of Rome.
NT Greek should be just fine. Once you've mastered that, move on to the Byzantine Greek of the Fathers.
How do you presume to know that Archbishop Lefebvre did not believe there was a case of necessity?
what I really don't understand is the reason why Lefebvre felt it was an absolute necessity to consecrate the bishops against the explicit wishes of Rome.
In order to preserve the faith. See post #22 if you have any doubt that it needed preserving.
Do you not know that throughout history there have been excommunications declared for purely political reasons?
What was the necessity?
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