Rosaries: darned near indestructible

National Catholic Reporter ^ | 3/11/2005 | Arthur Jones

[Grey Ghost II]

"Integrist" is a technical ecclesiastical term. Perhaps, some Catholic more learned than I can define the term with reference to Church documents as authority.

An "integrist" offers her provocative explanation for the current disasters and divides within the Church.

[JesseHousman]

Thanks for posting that link to the article and to the website.

[Dominick]

Of course, the schismatics themselves disagree because they wish to advertise their schism to the uncatechized or insufficiently catechized or the unwary.

This sums up my motivation for the most part.

The situation of SSPX schismatics claiming Catholicism in spite of the ruling of the pope would seem likely to be an unfair burden for moderators here who are or may well be non-Catholic. This is somewhat akin to asking secular courts to decide matters of religious doctrine of any Church. Members of a church have a right to their good name and that of their Church and to defend both when attacked by outsiders.

I agree. But the most profound issue is:
We suggest far too much to the enemies of conservatism by this intramural bickering as to how they may divide us by the use of wedge issues against us.

Precisely the issue. It is silly to find myself being accused of modernism, since I attend Indult Mass, and attend the Novus Ordo, as well as attend Divine Liturgy at a local Catholic Byzantine church on occasion. I consider myself a Catholic first, and then a traditionalist. It is like I am a conservative politically, then to meet those goals I am a Republican. The cart can't come before the horse.

It amazes me what people think passes for a logical argument.

Great post there Blackelk.

[Grey Ghost II]

In the nineteenth century some Catholics started arguing that many of the ideas inspiring the French Revolution (notwithstanding copious evidence of the Masonic inspiration of this event) could be reconciled with Catholic thought as they were eventually Christian in origin (sound familiar?). These men, who came to be called ‘Liberal Catholics’ had to endure hearing many rude things said about them by other Catholics (like the Pope, for instance). They did not like this and, after much thought, came up with a rather clever wheeze: they thought of a new word ‘integrist’. Meant of course as a term of abuse with which to denigrate their opponents (i.e. orthodox logical Catholics), and thereby created, with one masterful stroke of the pen, a climate of opinion in which they - the Liberals - would appear to be mainstream Catholics and their opponents a mere extremist sect within the Church. Crude though this manoeuvre may appear, it succeeded, probably beyond their wildest dreams, to a point where less than a century later we even find excellent orthodox Catholics such as Dietrich Von Hildebrand (described by Pius XII as a twentieth century Doctor of the Church) referring, incredibly, to the "regrettable narrowness of the integrists."

[St. Johann Tetzel]

Those who are here who can't refrain from tearing at the common bond of conservatism should evaluate why they would bring some threads here, if not to tear at the purpose of FR.

Definitely.

...but, how often have you made similar remarks about threads from the anti-Catholic, anti-Pope John Paul II "National Catholic Reporter."

They pose far more a threat to Catholicism than the trads, if for no other reason than that their liberal nonsense reaches a subscription base many times larger than all the "traditional" publications combined.

Let's rid ourselves not only of "schismatics" on the right but also those on the far left, as this IS a "conservative news forum" and the "National Catholic Reporter" is diametrically opposed to ALL conservatism, both political and religious..

[sinkspur]

Let's rid ourselves not only of "schismatics" on the right but also those on the far left, as this IS a "conservative news forum" and the "National Catholic Reporter" is diametrically opposed to ALL conservatism, both political and religious..

How is this article about the rosary opposed to ALL conservatism, both political and religious?

Be specific.

Also, as long as the schismatics, like Ultima Ratio, are allowed to post from The Remnant, articles from the National Catholic Reporter will be posted, by me.

[Dominick]

how often have you made similar remarks about threads from the anti-Catholic, anti-Pope John Paul II "National Catholic Reporter."

Are we keeping score? I don't read it, unless an article is excerpted. Generally, I call them as I see them.

I don't take a cotton to people who find a "deliberate abuse" under every rock, because they are never disappointed when they find a problem, I am much happier when I find a problem and I can provide a solution. Confronting a Pastor with a "deliberate abuse" entrenches it, asking a Pastor about a GIRM or CCL passage that talks about an abuse often ends it. What is the goal, to make a lot of noise about abuse, or make a lot of people get to heaven?

Let's rid ourselves not only of "schismatics" on the right

I am not impugning the conservatism of integrist schismatics, but this issue goes beyond right and left. We may all agree that abortion must be ended. A Baptist believes in zero sacraments, and baptism as an act of obedience (not the removal of original sin, and the foundation of Grace), but many are pro-life. He is definitely right on the issue of killing children, but the belief is not Catholic. The political labels of right and left don't belong in a Catholic doctrinal discussion, I prefer orthodox and permissive.

Every viewpoint of conservatism here has a place. Permissive and orthodox views both have a home here, as we discuss the larger issues of combating the culture war, where political liberals seek to force us with the violence of government action to accept euthanasia, abortion, and public homosexuality.

NCR, as liberal as it is, still posted a pretty good article on the Rosary. Once we all have people praying, perhaps there ought to be hope that the rest of the doctrinal defects can be healed.

[Centaur]

For those who want to be really discreet, there is a download for your PDA that's the rosary, complete with the mysteries, pics, mediations and all. You move to the next prayer with a touch of the Amen icon. Pretty neat, although I do prefer the beads.

[St. Johann Tetzel]

To: sinkspur

Here is a thread you posted insulting to the Pope and encouraging disobedience:

http://freerepublic.info/focus/f-religion/1196899/posts

106 posted on 03/10/2005 6:19:04 PM EST by nickcarraway

[nickcarraway]

Here is a thread you posted insulting to the Pope and encouraging disobedience:

http://freerepublic.info/focus/f-religion/1196899/posts

[sinkspur]

Your point?

[St. Johann Tetzel]

Obvious. Its OK for Sink to post threads insulting to the Pope and encouraging disobedience, but Trads will be banned for same. The point is obviously the same old one: "why Double standard?"

Of course, I'm Byzantine Catholic, so I don't really have a dog in your fight against traditionalists. I can tell you, however, that many Byzantine Catholic priests feel the Novus Ordo was a grave mistake, that will be supplanted by a liturgy more closely resembling the old Latin one.

They know this intuitively by comparing the vernacularization of the Divine Liturgy (in the 1950s) with the vernacularization of the Latin liturgy two decades later.

The Byzantine Divine Liturgy maintained pride of place for the sacred character of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the priesthood itself. No western liberal agenda infected its translation; no protestant-like phraseology invaded its language.

Byzantine Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox pay far more attention to how Rome treats "tradition" than us westerners realize, and the patronizing attitude of the Novus Ordo supporters towards tradition plays a very large role in the reticence of the East to broach the subject of reunion.

This obviously violates thespirit with which Pope JPII approaches the Eastern Churches, and as such is wrong.

[HighlyOpinionated]

Maybe this is a good time to insert these verses for your prayerful consideration.

Galatians 5:13-26 13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

[St. Johann Tetzel]

Um, not to be a pain about this, but NCR could have done a little more homework on the origin of the Rosary.

This article is seething with contempt and condescension for the Rosary and is mockingly patronizing towards this pious practice and those slantbrowed neanderthal Catholics who are still attached to its usage.

This thing is a typical cynical NCR hitpiece on the Rosary, as the author breaks his arm to pat himself on the back because he takes a few minutes out of his hectic week to patronize his old relative and join her in wearing out her worry beads.

Anyone who sees this as "a nice little article" knows nothing about NCR or their agenda, or else agrees with it explicitly.

[Desdemona]

Anyone who sees this as "a nice little article" knows nothing about NCR or their agenda, or else agrees with it explicitly.

I don't believe I implied that. I do know what NCR is up to. And as a person who inhereited three family Rosaries in the last month and goes to Mass half an hour early just to say one in peace, this article did yank my chain, as it were.

I guess the fact that the origins of the Rosary were blurred here was my point. If you know the origins, it becomes far more difficult to insult the prayers.

[St. Johann Tetzel]

Anyone who sees this as "a nice little article" knows nothing about NCR or their agenda, or else agrees with it explicitly.

I don't believe I implied that.

Don't worry, I'm not saying you did, but earlier someone on this thread said that explicitly, which is disingenuous to say the least.

[OriginalChristian]

'Every history I've read begins with the Rosary being "the poor man's psalter", since the peasants couldn't afford their own books.'

Affording books wasn't the issue. Peasants as a whole couldn't read.

[pascendi]

Hey ultima, thank you for your defense of the Catholic Faith.

This is what things come to if one is a true follower of Christ.

Keep up the good work keeping up the Faith, and may Our Lord and Our Lady see you all the way through to final perseverence.

Shame on everyone else.

[sinkspur]

Anyone who sees this as "a nice little article" knows nothing about NCR or their agenda, or else agrees with it explicitly.

You are the most cynical person on this forum.

[St. Johann Tetzel]

One often sees in others that which they truly despise about themselves.

[sinkspur]

Have a Happy Palm Sunday!