Posted on 01/22/2005 7:13:05 PM PST by thePilgrim
So... if I left an Arminian-leaning church to join a Calvinist one, did I create or join a schism?
Yeah, well, what is being the self-appointed public upbraider of the forum?
First of all, I am not the "self-appointed upbraider of the forum." This is a public discussion forum, and I have only confronted heretics and those who taught evil doctrines. The only people I "upbraided" were telder1, who was a Gnostic Calvinist that taught that Arminians were not Christians, and stormingthegatesofhell, who said that inter-racial marriage was a sin and that children of God were not to mingle with children of the devil. Both should have been confronted, and I should not have been alone.
The only other things I have said is that I don't care what you and a few others thought. Opposition won't stop me from doing what I believe to be right.
You were on the side of the angels with both telder and Storming.
Confronting bigotry in 2 different forms.
The methodists in my area are so desperate that they will take people ordained in other churches and let them pastor a church. I have a Catholic GIRL friend that is on staff and preaches in a Methodist church (after she goes to mass of course)
My two cents on that subject.
Also, as a Roman Catholic, disinterested in the question of internal Protestant schisms, let me offer that John Wesley was among the greatest of God's preaching men in leading souls to Christ who otherwise would have failed to hear the Good News of salvation in Christ because of the sorry and sad state of the Church of England at that time, but because of him those souls did hear, and hearing they did believe, and believing, they were baptised -- and saving souls from the clutches of the devil is worth more than we can possibly even begin to imagine. And for that all should be awestruck and pray that in like way the Holy Ghost will endow us with every gift of grace to do likewise in our own day.
***As a Roman Catholic, I venture onto this thread carefully.***
Don't worry! We blunder on over onto Catholic threads all time!!!
***Such a denunciation of one's former denomination is not a positive witness for the grace of God one has received to move forward.***
I've seen enough people trash where they've been enough to realize that often (but not always) the problem was with the individual and not the group. Ultimately the answer doesn't lie in any denomination but in ones own personal walk with the Lord. It's so easy to stray from that and start looking for other "excuses".
***John Wesley was among the greatest of God's preaching men***
It is very gratifying to hear yor opinion of him. I believe you are correct. The many hymns he and his brother wrote still are leading people to a saving knowlege of Jesus. He claimed his source of strength was from his early morning time of communion with the Lord. He would end his evening at 8:00 pm (IIRC) without exception even for governors and princes explaining that he had an early morning appointment with the King.
May I say also that it is so good to hear from you. I have missed seeing you around here and have had you in my thoughts often.
See #56.
A pastor in our church is not necessarily an ordained elder. (In terms of "pastors", only Elders are voting members at our conference on the clergy side) Also a church building does not necessarily a church make....some are really considered "class" meetings and are not authorized sacramental authority (no baptism, communion; and legally, no wedding) at all or only within that tiny group and no place else.
I'm speaking for UMC only -- as a member of our District Board of Ordained Ministry I'm very confident of what I say. Rev might speak to the Free Methodists.
Also, only ordained elders are qualified for appointments as military Chaplains -- a role that requires full sacramental authority or there is no acceptance by the military.
I, too, think this author is over the top in calling his former understanding of church organization a "sin." JMHO.
I, too, agree that John Wesley was greatly used by God. God used Wesley in both the spread of the gospel, in providing a means of ministry in America during pioneer expansion and Revolutionary War turmoil, and in bringing about the end of England's support of the slave trade.
Any of those testify to a life lived for Christ.
As a methodist elder, I am, of course, biased. :>)
Whatever! (To use modern parlance.)
If this guy feels that he needs that type of ecclesiastical structure, then more power to him. I do feel that he "complaineth too much".
Just my Baptist opinion.
If C. H. Spurgeon and John Piper are sinners because they are ordained in the Baptist Denomination - then let us sin boldly. God saves sinners doesn't he?
Thank you for your insight, those are wise words.
I will be in your area for several weeks in June.. I hope to run into you at church :>)
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