Posted on 02/10/2004 10:46:05 AM PST by ksen
On the Freedom of the Will
PART II
Section I: Showing the manifest inconsistence of the Arminian notion of Liberty of Will, consisting in the Will's self-determining Power.
Having taken notice of those things which may be necessary to be observed, concerning the meaning of the principal terms and phrases made use of in controversies concerning human liberty, and particularly observed what Liberty is according to the common language and general apprehension of mankind, and what it is as understood and maintained by Arminians; I proceed to consider the Arminian notion of the Freedom. of the Will, and the supposed necessity of it in order to moral agency, or in order to any one's being capable of virtue or vice, and properly the subject of command or counsel, praise or blame, promises or threatenings, rewards or punishments; or whether that which has been described, as the thing meant by Liberty in common speech, be not sufficient, and the only Liberty, which make, or can make any one a moral agent, and so properly the subject of these things. In this Part, I shall consider whether any such thing be possible or conceivable, as that Freedom of Will which Arminians insist on; and shall inquire, whether any such sort of Liberty be necessary to moral agency, &c. in the next part. And first of all, I shall consider the notion of a self-determining Power in the Will: wherein, according to the Arminians, does most essentially consist the Will's freedom; and shall particularly inquire, whether it be not plainly absurd, and a manifest inconsistence, to suppose that the Will itself determines all the free acts of the will.
Here I shall not insist on the great impropriety of such ways of speaking as the Will determining itself; because actions are to be ascribed to agents, and not properly to the powers of agents; which improper way of speaking leads to many mistakes, and much confusion, as Mr. Locke observes. But I shall suppose that the Arminians, when they speak of the Will's determining itself, do by the Will mean the soul willing. I shall take it for granted, that when they speak of the will, as the determiner, they mean the soul in the exercise of a power of willing, or acting voluntarily. I shall suppose this to be their meaning, because nothing else can be meant, without the grossest and plainest absurdity. In all cases when we speak of the powers or principles of acting, or doing such things we mean that the agents which have these Powers of acting, do them, in the exercise of those Powers. So where we say, valor fights courageously, we mean, the man who is under the influence of valor fights courageously. Where we say, love seeks the object loved, we mean, the person loving seeks that object. When we say, the understanding discerns, we mean the soul in the exercise of that faculty So when it is said, the will decides or determines, this meaning must be, that the person, in the exercise of: Power of willing and choosing, or the soul, acting voluntarily, determines.
Therefore, if the Will determines all its own free acts the soul determines them in the exercise of a Power of willing and choosing; or, which is the same thing, it determines them of choice; it determines its own acts, by choosing its own acts. If the Will determines the Will then choice orders and determines the choice; and acts c choice are subject to the decision, and follow the conduct of other acts of choice. And therefore if the Will deter mines all its own free acts, then every free act of choice is determined by a preceding act of choice, choosing that act. And if that preceding act of the will be also a free act. then by these principles, in this act too, the will is self-determined: that is, this, in like manner, is an act that the soul voluntarily chooses; or, which is the same thing, it is an act determined still by a preceding act of the will, choosing that. Which brings us directly to a contradiction: for it supposes an act of the Will preceding the first act in the whole train, dieting and determining the rest; or a free act of the Will, before the first free act of the Will. Or else we must come at last to an act of the will, determining the consequent acts, wherein the Will is not self-determined, and so is not a free act, in this notion of freedom: but if the first act in the train, determining and fixing the rest, be not free, none of them all can be free; as is manifest at first view, but shall be demonstrated presently.
If the Will, which we find governs the members of the body, and determines their motions, does also govern itself, and determines its own actions, it doubtless determines them the same way, even by antecedent volitions. The Will determines which way the hands and feet shall move, by an act of choice: and there is no other way of the Will's determining, directing, or commanding any thing at all. Whatsoever the will commands, it commands by an act of the Will. And if it has itself under its command, and determines itself in its own actions, it doubtless does it the same way that it determines other things which are under its command. So that if the freedom of the will consists in this, that it has itself and its own actions under its command and direction, and its own volitions are determined by itself, it will follow, that every free volition arises from another antecedent volition, directing and commanding that: and if that directing volition be also free, in that also the will is determined; that is to say, that directing volition is determined by another going before that; and so on, till we come to the first volition in the whole series: and if that first volition be free, and the will self-determined in it, then that is determined by another volition preceding that. Which is a contradiction; because by the supposition, it can have none before it, to direct or determine it, being the first in the train. But if that first volition is not determined by any preceding act of the Will, then that act is not determined by the Will, and so is not free in the Arminian notion of freedom, which consists in the Will's self-determination. And if that first act of the will which determines and fixes the subsequent acts, be not free, none of the following acts which are determined by it can be free.-- If we suppose there are five acts in the train, the fifth and last determined by the fourth, and the fourth by the third, the third by the second, and the second by the first; if the first is not determined by the Will, and so not free, then none of them are truly determined by the Will: that is, that each of them are as they are, and not otherwise, is not first owing to the will, but to the determination of the erst in the series, which is not dependent on the will, and is that which the will has no hand in determining. And this being that which decides what the rest shall be, and determines their existence; therefore the first determination of their existence is not from the Will. The case is just the same, if instead of a chain of five acts of the Will, we should suppose a succession of ten, or an hundred, or ten thousand. If the first act he not free, being determined by something out of the will, and this determines the next to be agreeable to itself, and that the next, and so on; none of them are free, but all originally depend on, and are determined by, some cause out of the Will; and so all freedom in the case is excluded, and no act of the will can be free, according to this notion of freedom. If we should suppose a long chain of ten thousand links, so connected, that if the first link moves, it will move the next, and that the next; and so the whole chain must be determined to motion, and in the direction of its motion, by the motion of the first link; and that is moved by something else; in this case, though all the links, but one, are moved by other parts of the same chain, yet it appears that the motion of no one, nor the direction of its motion, is from any self-moving or self-determining power in the chain, any more than if every link were immediately moved by something that did not belong to the chain.-- If the Will be not free in the first act, which causes the next, then neither is it free in the next, which is caused by that first act; for though indeed the Will caused it, yet it did not cause it freely; because the preceding act, by which it was caused, was not free. And again, if the Will be not free in the second act, so neither can it be in the third, which is caused by that; because in like manner, that third was determined by an act of the Will that was not free. And so we may go on to the next act, and from that to the next; and how long soever the succession of acts is, it is all one: if the first on which the whole chain depends, and which determines all the rest, be not a free act, the Will is not free in causing or determining any one of those acts; because the act by which it determines them all is not a free act; and therefore the Will is no more free in determining them, than if it did not cause them at all.-- Thus, this Arminian notion of Liberty of the Will, consisting in the will's Self-determination, is repugnant to itself, and shuts itself wholly out of the world.
Statements like this: I’ll be glad to tell you what some of the passages you wrote or cite mean to me...
Instead of what God said, the subjectivists says, "this is what it means to me"(which requires the subjectivist reads into God's Word want they already "feel", instead of letting the text speak itself, within the context of the entirety of Scripture.
I don't have to "know your heart", all that is needed is to read what you say, in how you misappropriate Scripture, and read into snippets of passages what you want them to say, to agree with your own feelings.
I know what you say, in contradiction to the sound teaching of the entirety of Scripture.
Amen to that, marron -- Amen! Our God is a Living God!!! As you say, "the scriptures are not some kind of taxidermy performed on a frozen God." They are God's Living Word. To treat them as if they were some kind of once-and-for-all, fully specified universal instruction set -- as if God's Word, once spoken, was frozen in time (instead of being a call, an invitation to a living communication with Him) -- is to risk making an idol out of the Bible. And we all know that God does not look kindly on idolatry.
Thank you for your so very beautiful reply, marron.
1 Corinthians 2:
14But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?"[5] But we have the mind of Christ.
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Where you greatly err is reading into the text what your subjective feelings want to see instead of reading the text for what IT is saying.
Ah, there’s the rub! How do you determine this? Do you look deeply into a man and just see that he is a dog or a swine?
I don't have to "look into deeply into a man", Jesus said we would know them by their fruit. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit. Their words and deeds reveal them.
Do you have the infallible wisdom to know these things?
Yes, I do, in God's Word, as opposed to subjective feelings. But you didn't really answer the question, instead you used the old ploy of shooting off a barrage of deflective questions, which I have in intellectual and Christian love, responded to. I would ask you do the same.
Re: 6"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.(Matthew 7:6) ===============================
You wrote: “How can you follow that command unless you first determine(judge), who are dogs and swine?”
Am I to take it from your response that you do not accept that command of Jesus seriously?
Or maybe you divert to keep from answering because the answer will contradict your feelings about "judging"?
Then you agree with me!!! :^)
No, what I'm saying, and have backed it up with God's Word, is that you are terribly wrong, and are in conflict with God's Word.
And so God has told you that Joseph Smith is a heretic and false prophet? Or was it perhaps the case that a man has told you this?
Jesus said we would know wolves in sheep's clothing by their fruit. Joseph Smith's fruit was bad, bad, bad, very, very bad. He taught a false jesus, a false gospel, and was as lewd a character as there is. I compare his teaching to that of Scripture and can clearly see that he was a false prophet. Maybe if you took God's Word more seriously you would learn these things.
Galatians 1:
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Joseph Smith taught a false gospel and false jesus, and was under the curse of God.
LDS follows Christ – unless I am very much mistaken.
Yes, you are very much mistaken, on a lot of things. Is your jesus a created being?
Is your jesus the spirit brother of Lucifer?
Is your jesus a god who has his own planet with millions of celestial wives that he has celestial sex with?
(Though maybe they aren’t following Him the way you think they should….)
No, they are following a false jesus and a false gospel, who is not the same as the Jesus of the Bible and historic Christian faith.
I'm curious, are you LDS?
Tell me what this commandment of Jesus means?
6"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.(Matthew 7:6)
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That is not suggestion, it is a command. Do you take that command seriously?
Quite the opposite, Scripture makes it VERY clear that we ARE to judge the spiritual condition of others.
Do you evangelize? How do YOU know who to present the gospel to?
2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Cr 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Cr 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
1 Corinthians 6:2-5
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
The admonision is not to judge another when you are a servant to the same sin yourself..rather repent your sin first .
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
2 Timothy 4:1-3 1. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
2. Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
3. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Ah, there’s the rub! How do you determine this? Do you look deeply into a man and just see that he is a dog or a swine? Do you have the infallible wisdom to know these things?
God has given us a measuring rod (canon) to use . We can determine the condition of the tree by its fruit . The word of God is our measure for judging the spiritual conditions of others as well as ourself.
And so you are saying that your human mind knows all the things that are in the Mind of God? That your wisdom is as great as His, so much so that it enables you completely to understand His mind, His purpose, His will?
The saved have the mind of Christ .
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
for Joseph Smith is as much His child as you or I…. You wrote: “No, only the elect who have trusted in Christ have the right to be called the children of God.” Well then, what am I missing here? LDS follows Christ – unless I am very much mistaken. (Though maybe they aren’t following Him the way you think they should….)
I would suggest a study of Mormonism to see what christ they follow and see if it is the same jesus you follow . The jesus they worship is the spirit child of the heavenly father and mother and the spirit brother of Lucifer. There is much other doctrine that shows the difference. Even the 'prophet" of the Mormons admits it is a different jesus
The Prophet Hinckley responds: "No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they [non-Mormons] speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages" (LDS Church News Week 6/20/98, p.7).
All doctrine is not equal , we are called to have the discernment as given to us at the time of Salvation to guide us into all truth
Jesus warned us
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
And thank you, Religion Mod, for trying to keep the conversation from turning personal. Alas, personal attacks were already posted against me at 919 and 921. I would however like them to stand because they constitute a testimony to the points that betty boop, marron and I have been making here, i.e. that God is love, those who dwell in love dwell in God and God dwells in them (1 John 4:16).
Ephesian210, the thrust of your posts is that you insist I must come and join your group in making various judgments and defending the Scriptures according to a particular interpretation.
Again, I respectfully and lovingly decline. This is not negotiable. Like Mary, I am under Christ’s protection because I have chosen to sit at His feet and listen to His Word. Again, with emphasis:
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. – Luke 10:38-42
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. – Luke 6:36-38
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. – Galatians 6:7-8
It is my choice to be more like the apostle John and the church of Philadelphia. But by all means, Ephesians210, choose your own path, but please quite insisting I follow you. I will not.
From your post it sounds like you are are somewhat the sisters that devote their life to prayer and reflection. (like Mary at the feet of Jesus.)
But some of us are called to go out to the world, and to preach the gospel in season and out . When one decides to live the gospel call, discernment and judgment are not an addition to our work, they are necessary.
To those that have that particular call it is essential to know the spiritual condition of others (that calls for judgment). It is essential that we listen to the gospels that are preached so we can confront distortion and evil .
Jesus demanded those kinds of judgments of His apostles as He sent them out. They were to shake the dust off their sandals and move on , they were not to give the gospel to those that hated God (do not caste your pearls) .
So even while Christ walked this earth his followers were called on to judge their audience .
The apostles took this very seriously because they wanted to keep the gospel pure and not preverted . We can see that in some of the letters. All gospels are not equal , and only the one delivered to us by Christ through the apostles it to be taught as that is the only one that saves.
To be honest I do not worry about my "protection" I know that I am preserved and protected, I worry about those that are caught in false doctrines and gospels (as I believe we all need be..so some can pray for them and others can go out into the fields ). We must hold all doctrine up to the word of God as the measuring rod .
I take Paul's admonition to the Galatians very seriously
Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
If we stand by and do nothing when a false gospel is preached I believe we will stand in judgment for that.
Ephesian210, the thrust of your posts is that you insist I must come and join your group in making various judgments and defending the Scriptures according to a particular interpretation
The wonderful thing about Calvinism we know that God does the work and not us. I do not know the doctrine of EPH 210, but I do know that no one can "force" anyone into their doctrinal position..I do not think ??? he was trying to insist on anything with you...
I think the word of God is very clear, and I think that EPH thinks it is too. We can all disagree on the fine points, but the theme is clear . If we do nothing to present the gospel of Christ or to convict those under a false gospel we will be judged for that too, so we need to listen and understand to what is taught .The world is today overtaken with spiritualism, new age philosophy ,and occult practices and there are perversions of the word of God that are preached as the gospel. It behooves those of us that do feel it is a command to see the gospel presented correctly that we listen and learn and not fear the confrontation .
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