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To: joe032783
So, the Muslim point of view is that no matter who you are, if you submit to God, you are a Muslim.

Well. Thank you. Now certain passages I have read from the Koran make sense. Instead of calling for the killing of all who do not follow their particular religion, the Koran calls for the killing of all who do not submit to G-d.

It's still too damned harsh in a civilized society, but it makes this particular Jew put his Uzi back in it's carrying case. :o)

40 posted on 10/07/2003 3:27:55 PM PDT by Lazamataz (I am the extended middle finger in the fist of life.)
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To: Lazamataz
Well. Thank you. Now certain passages I have read from the Koran make sense. Instead of calling for the killing of all who do not follow their particular religion, the Koran calls for the killing of all who do not submit to G-d. It's still too damned harsh in a civilized society, but it makes this particular Jew put his Uzi back in it's carrying case. :o)

My position on the religion of peace issue always has been this: It doesn't really matter whether Islam is a religion of peace, it matters how many Muslims practice it as a religion of peace. Christianity is not a religion of slavery (and the Bible even says slavetraders will not enter Heaven) or race-hatred, but how many churches justified slavery in antebellum America; how many Klan members and neo-Nazis claim to be "Christians?" Heck, "Christian" views on homosexuality range from "Of course we held a protest outside Matthew Sheppard's funeral because Jesus hates fags" to "You're gay? Great, that's just what we're looking for in a Bishop!" Certainly, God Almighty does not hold both of those opinions, and I would say he holds neither one, yet people belive these things and claim they serve Christ. Most American Muslims would be far more welcome in my living room than any such "Christian." So if we woke up tomorrow and 99% of the world's Muslims were of the "It's a religion of peace" sort, I would be glad to live in peace with the 99% and kill the reemaining 1% deader than cockroaches at an exterminator's convention.

That said (apologies for long-windedness) don't holster your Uzi just yet. Check this out:

[W]e find this praise to Allah for help in conquests in Surah 33, verses 25-27:

"And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting, and Allah is Strong, Mighty. And he drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part. And he made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property and (to) land where you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things."

The Beni Qoreiga tribe were not the only “People of the Book” that Muhammad was now against. In Surah 9, verse 29 we read, “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

Indeed, in Surah 8, verse 65, Muhammad wrote a command from Allah to make war, and a guarantee it will be a success. “O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand."

This is from a paper I wrote on Muhammad's early military campaigns and their effect on Islamic doctrine. The Qur’an quotes are from an edition translated by M.H. Shakir, which I checked against other translations to make sure his version was consistent. The Beni Qoreiga tribe was a group of Jews Muhammad decimated in Medina because they would not offer him military support--6-800 men executed, about 1,000 women and children sold into slavery. One widow was made Muhammad's concubine.

There is also an islamic doctrine called "The Abrogator and the Abrogated" which holds that if two verses of the Qu'ran conflict, the later one is in operation and the former one is no longer in effect. To give an idea what effect this has had, check out this quote from Islam Unveiled by Abdullah Al-Araby:

An example of abrogation: there are 124 verses that call for tolerance and patience which have been cancelled and replaced by this single verse: “Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)...” Surah 9:5. One doesn’t help but wonder; how Allah, the all-powerful, the omniscient, and the omnipotent, needs to revise himself so often.

In that context, "Pagans" means any who do not believe in Allah as the one true God, so it would include Jews and Christians. Many people may practice Islam as a peaceful religion, but it had not been so from about the time Muhammad moved to Medina, and the period of violence and expansionism by Islamist forces has continued with hardly a pause for 1,300 years.

88 posted on 10/08/2003 8:58:51 AM PDT by Mr. Silverback ("I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. Couldn't park anywhere near the place."--Steven Wright)
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