Jews for Allah

Jewsweek ^ | 9-9-03

[SJackson]

	October 7, 2003

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Jews for Allah

It began as a joke, but it's now all too real. Adopting the same methodology of Jews for Jesus, a Web site is trying to tell you it's OK to be a Jew and follow Mohammed too.

by Alexandra Alter

October 3, 2003

It began as sort of a joke. Mohamed Ghounem, 32, a mild-mannered, laid-off telecom worker who lives with his wife and daughter in suburban Connecticut, says it was the headline "Christ Converts to Islam" in the satirical newspaper The Onion that gave him the idea for his Web site, JewsforAllah.com.

At first, he laughed. Then he thought, "Why not?" Ghounem, whose religious pedigree includes a year of study at al-Azhar, the world's foremost institute of Sunni Islamic learning, said he felt frustrated by Muslims' lack of evangelical activity.

		The curious conversion

		Jewsforallah.com

Although Muslims are the world's fastest growing religious group with more than a billion adherents, they haven't been active enough in the battle for Jewish souls, Ghounem says. "Muslims haven't been doing it," he says. "The Muslim attitude, unfortunately, was 'Jews will never convert'."

But why target Jews, fellow monotheists whose faith is regarded by many as Islam's closest relative, and who the Quran describes as "People of the Book?" According to Ghounem's reasoning, to help the Jews, who remain dangerously ignorant of Mohammed's prophecy, and, in the long run, to turn Israel into an Islamic state.

Ghounem's goals, while seen by many as laughably far-fetched, have outraged leaders of Jewish counter-missionary groups who have already been fighting off Christian evangelists for decades and are wary of new attempts to convert Jews by aggressive or deceptive means.

A fervent admirer of Moishe Rosen, the founder of the messianic group Jews for Jesus, Ghounem has studied the groups' tactics and adopted their rhetoric. Like Jews for Jesus, an organization renowned for claiming a Jew who believes in Jesus is a "completed Jew," Ghounem says converts can maintain their Jewish cultural identity and observe Jewish holidays. He stresses Judaism and Islam's shared lineage of prophets and their similar dietary laws. And, in language almost identical to his Christian mentors, he insists that a true Jew follows Mohammed.

"If you're a true Torah follower, you'll believe in Mohammed, because he's predicted in the Torah," Ghounem says.

He also argues Jews can liberate themselves from the stringent demands of their religion by embracing Islam. "The holy Quran is a mercy to Jews," Ghounem says. "A lot of the things in the Torah, they're not going to have to do anymore."

The suggestion that Judaism's proximity to Islam justifies conversion remains odious to many, however, who see Ghounem's efforts as an affront to both religions. "What this guy is doing is a disservice to both faith systems," says Scott Hillman, executive director of Jews for Judaism, a group that seeks to educate and protect Jews from evangelical groups. "If he's going to say, 'Judaism is fulfilled by Islam,' he's saying Islam is incomplete."

Others say Ghounem is simply acting on the centuries-old impetus for people of all faiths to seek converts. Ibrahim Hooper of the Council for American Islamic Relations says Ghounem's objectives are in keeping with the principles of Islam, which encourages evangelism. "Muslims are encouraged to present accurate and balanced information about their faith to people of all religions," Hooper says.

Before he set out to convert Jews, Ghounem underwent a conversion of his own, from being an American college student who was mostly ignorant about his faith, to a self-fashioned Muslim scholar combating the pervasive myths about Islam he encountered on the Internet.

Ghounem, who immigrated to the United States from Egypt at age six, says his knowledge of Islam was tenuous when he graduated from Western Connecticut University with a degree in engineering. After returning to Cairo for a year to study at al-Azhar, Ghounem began spending hours a night in chat-room debates with Messianic Jews and Christians.

Unlike Jews for Jesus, Ghounem has no sponsors and no missionaries; he relies solely on the Internet for outreach. His Web site, which has had more than one million visitors since it was launched three years ago, has attracted about 200 "converts" who use it as a support group. It also provides a forum for Ghounem to address misconceptions about Islam, like the idea that Islam was spread by the sword, that the Quran is anti-Semitic, and that Jews and Muslims worship different gods.

Leaders of Jewish counter-missionary organizations claim they aren't overly concerned by Ghounem's efforts, saying the content of his Web site is so outrageous that most people don't pay attention. "This is a freak show, a side show," says Rabbi Tovia Singer, the head of Outreach Judaism, a group that works to bring converts back into the fold.

Moreover, they say Ghounem's background as an Egyptian-born Sunni Muslim probably doesn't help his quest for Jewish converts. "Ghounem wasn't a Jew in the first place. The Jews for Jesus founder was at least a convert who was Jewish," Hillman says.

Ghounem may not be Jewish, but the man who he has described as his alter ego, Yousef al Khattab, was born a Jew. The 35-year-old Brooklyn native, once known as Joseph Cohen, now lives in the Arab quarter of Jerusalem, where for the past three years he has operated the Web site JewstoIslam.com. Though the two men have never met, they monitor each other's progress and frequently chat online.

While Ghounem's site may invite ridicule, al Khattab's has been attacked with viruses, threats, and complaints. With links such as "My Heroes the Taliban" and "Freaky Jewish Stuff," which details such familiar anti-Semitic myths as rabbis sucking babies' blood, it is no wonder the site has been taken down several times.

As a former Jew preaching conversion amid the treacherous political and religious fault lines dividing Israel, al Khattab is a far more controversial figure than Ghounem. His transformation from being an ultra-Orthodox American Jew to a fundamentalist Muslim gives him license to preach a higher level of invective against Jews than his Gentile counterparts, says Singer, who says al Khattab threatened his life by posting his home address on the Internet and inviting Muslims to "visit him at his home."

"Jews who've converted to Islam are disenfranchised and self-hating," Singer says. "When you listen to them, you will hear virulent hatred toward Judaism. Their message is pregnant with hate."

But al Khattab, who denies ever having contact with Singer, says it is Judaism, rather than Jews, that he opposes, arguing that Jews have been misled by their rabbis. "Muslims are all inclusive and the whole message of Islam is to invite Jews, Nazis, capitalists, all religions and beliefs," al Khattab said in an e-mail.

Al Khattab, who has converted 11 Jews, said he was attracted by Islam's clear message of obedience to God. He seems unfazed by charges that he supports the goals of terrorists (he has called on Muslims to take up arms against Jews who don't convert), or by other Muslims' initial suspicions that he was a member of Mossad, the Israeli secret service.

"When we become Muslims we do this for the sake of Allah all mighty alone," he says. "We don't care if Muslims or non-Muslims approve of our goals."

Ghounem, who shares al Khattab's goal of turning Israel into an Islamic state, has chosen a different approach, however, taking careful stock of opinions about his Web site and often adjusting its content to appease critics. He took down a link about Sufism, the mystical strain of Islam, after some of his more orthodox fans complained Sufism is a fringe movement alien to Islam.

Ghounem said he recognizes converts risk alienation from both faiths, but hopes his Web site might lead to dialogue between Muslims and Jews. Well, that and one other thing. "My goal is to surpass Jews for Jesus, which I consider 100 percent inevitable," he said enthusiastically.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Wow. #105 is a great post. Bookmarked the links.

I just noticed something today and will add it here. In another thead I posted a couple of excerpts from the Council of Nicea (325)

From the Council of Nicea (325):(excerpted)

It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and whose minds were blinded.

In rejecting their custom,(1) we may transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter, which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the present day[according to the day of the week]. We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them?

They do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such wicked people[the Jews].

That's why the church needed to change the calendar, needed to do away with the Sabbath and started Sun-day worship, in 'honor of the venerable Sun'. Why they needed to distance themselves from Passover and celebrate Easter, a name derived from the pagan godess of fertility, widely known at the time.

The church has done nearly all it could to distance themselves from the root that they 'claim' to be grafted unto. Yet, it resembles nothing of the root anymore.

The part I want to specifically point out is this: for the Saviour has shown us another way;

An actual admission that the church has deviated from 'the way' and gone after 'another way'!! And to top it off, they give credit to Yeshua for this 'new way'. You pointed out in your post how it wasn't any more legitimate (which is what reminded me of this post), but the church does admit also to this 'other way' as being more CONVENIENT!

The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in God. In Deuteronomy 13, God describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2-6) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles.

Devarim 13:1-6 (Deuteronomy - Jewish Bible JPS-1917)
1 [It is enough that you] carefully observe everything that I am prescribing to you. Do not add to it and do not subtract from it.
2 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams--and he give thee a sign or a wonder,
3 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee--saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them';
4 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for HaShem your G-d putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love HaShem your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul.
5 After HaShem your G-d shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave.
6 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against HaShem your G-d, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which HaShem thy G-d commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.
7 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, that is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying: 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

BTTT

[DannyTN]

"as Judaism has ... no belief in an eternal hellfire to be "saved from." "

Apparently you speak for some but not all Jews on this matter. I found this on Jewish.com.

The Rabbinic tradition (those stories and ideas found in the Talmud and Midrashic works) are filled with different opinions about what will happen to people after death. Some rabbis believed that the souls of the righteous are rewarded and the souls of the wicked are punished. Some rabbis believed that the souls of the righteous will study Torah in the afterlife and be in God's presence. Some other rabbis believed that even the souls of the wicked are not perpetually punished, but that after some time, they too are allowed to enjoy the rewards of the righteous.

What's more, I found that that the Old Testament says a lot more about Hell than just those two verses.

It is mentoned in the Torah as a place of burning....Deuteronomy 32:22 - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

As a place of sorrow....2 Samuel 22:6 - The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; Psalms 18:5 - The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psalms 116:3 - The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

A place for the Wicked...Psalms 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalms 55:15 - Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Proverbs 7:27 - Her (prostitute) house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Isaiah 28:15 - Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

A place of destruction....Job 26:6 - Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. Proverbs 27:20 - Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

And then of course that previous post from Isaiah and Daniel calls it "everlasting burnings" and "everlasting contempt".

I just don't see how Jews can miss this and apparently according to Jewish.com, not all Jews do.

[DannyTN]

I found this verse fascinating...

Deuteronomy 32:22 - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

...because the last book in the Christian cannon, "Revelations", has the earth destroyed by fire. Turns out, once again, it says the same thing as the Torah.

[ChicagoHebrew]

I never said Judaism didn't believe in reward and punishment after death. I said, Judaism has "no belief in an eternal hellfire to be 'saved from'." Your post merely backs me up...

Some rabbis believed that the souls of the righteous are rewarded and the souls of the wicked are punished. Some rabbis believed that the souls of the righteous will study Torah in the afterlife and be in God's presence. Some other rabbis believed that even the souls of the wicked are not perpetually punished, but that after some time, they too are allowed to enjoy the rewards of the righteous.

This indeed is the standard Jewish belief... the wicked are punished after death, but not perpertually. Their is NO eternal hell. There is however "sheol/gehennim," which though often translated by Christians as "hell," functions more like the Catholic purgatory. The goal is not merely to punish the wicked, but to reform them. Thus, even in Gehennim, the souls of the wicked enjoy pleasure on Shabbat and Haggim-- to teach them the specialness of those days, and the mercy of G-d. Following their successful reformation, even the wicked are allowed into the World to Come. Incidentially, even the Righteous may go to Gehennim/Sheol for a brief period, to correct their spiritual imperfections-- thus, even Jacob tells his children that he soon will go to Sheol.

Be careful about quoting Daniel to a Jew... it just shows your utter ignorance of the text and Judaism. Judaism explicitly REJECTS that Daniel is a book of prophecy. That's why Daniel is included in the Ketuvim section of (Writings) the Bible-- along with the Song of Songs, Job, Ruth etc. Judaism rejects Daniel as prophecy because it acknolwedges that there are some clear corruptions in the text-- Daniel is written in Aramaic with traces of Greek- while a Jew of Daniel's time would speak Hebrew, Daniel incorrectly recounts Babylonian/Persian history etc. The Rabbis included it in the Tanakh only because the story itself has much merit, despite the corruptions.

Please cease with your arguments. They are tiresome and boring, as I haven't the time to reject them point by point.

[ChicagoHebrew]

I found this verse fascinating... Deuteronomy 32:22 - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. ...because the last book in the Christian cannon, "Revelations", has the earth destroyed by fire. Turns out, once again, it says the same thing as the Torah.

You ignorant fool! This proves nothing but the depths of idiocy you seek to in trying to convert people who know a lot more than you.

First, that verse doesn't talk about about the destruction of the world (just like the verses in Isaiah so often cited as "prophecy" of the birth of Jesus-- i.e. a virgin shall conceive, they will call him Wonderful Counselor etc...--- aren't prophecy at all. In the original Hebrew, they are in the PAST TENSE-- i.e. a young woman HAS ALREADY CONCEIVED etc. and refer to the era of King Hezekiah).

If you had bothered to read the next few paragraphs (not to mention chapters... idiot Christian missionaries like you always cite single verses out of context), you would have seen that G-d is speaking metaphorically here. Refer a few verses down...

36Indeed the LORD will vindicate his people, have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone, neither bond nor free remaining. 37Then he will say: Where are their gods, the rock in which they took refuge, 38who ate the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their libations? Let them rise up and help you, let them be your protection!

G-d is giving his "blessings" and "curses" to Israel-- he is warning them that their nation will be destroyed when they sin, but restored when they repent. That's it buddy.

Even if this was a prophecy of the end of the world (which is isn't), your citation to Revelations proves nothing. The authors of Revelations had access to the entire Tanakh. Simply repeating a prophecy found in Tanakh (say in Zacaraiah) doesn't "prove" anything about Revelations except that it's authors knew how to read and how to copy. I could sit down right now and write "prophecy" that the Ten Tribes shall return, the Temple restored etc.. it wouldn't prove me a prophet, just a copier.

[tictoc]

What is your opinion of this?

And by the way could you refrain from insulting other Freepers?

[DannyTN]

So according to you, when God says "a fire is kindled...and will consume the earth". He really means just Israel? What an ignorant fool I am, to think God meant what he said, instead of recognizing that He was using hyperbole. He probably didn't even mean that sin would cause us to die, He probably meant that sin would just make us to be a little uncomfortable.

If it's past tense as you claim, what son of Hezekiah was known as Mighty God and Everlasting Father?

And I found the following on Hebrew tenses....

Sometimes it is claimed that the messianic prophecies cited by Christians are in the past tense. Therefore, it is said, they cannot refer to a future, coming Messiah.

This is an invalid argument. There is no such thing as "tense" in biblical Hebrew. (Modern Hebrew, on the other hand, does have tenses.) Biblical Hebrew is not a "tense" language. Modern grammarians recognize that it is an "aspectual" language. This means that the same form of a verb can be translated as either past, present, or future depending on the context and various grammatical cues. The most well known grammatical cue is the "vav-consecutive" that makes an imperfective verb to refer to the past.

Therefore it is wrong to say that Isaiah 53 or other prophecies are in the "past tense." Biblical Hebrew has no tenses. There are many examples of what is wrongly called the "past tense" form (properly called "the perfective" or "perfect") being used for future time.

This fact was recognized by the medieval commentators as well as by modern grammarians, as shown by the following citations.

Medieval Jewish grammarian and commentator David Kimchi on the prophets' use of the perfect for future events:>/b>

"The matter is as clear as though it had already passed."

—David Kimchi, Sefer Mikhlol. Cited in Waltke, Bruce K. and O'Connor, Michael Patrick. An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Winona Lake, IN: Eisenbrauns, 1990), p. 464 n. 45. They reference Leslie McCall, The Enigma of the Hebrew Verbal System: Solutions From Ewald to the Present (Sheffield: Almond, 1982), p. 8.

Rabbi Isaac ben Yedaiah (13th c.)

[The rabbis] of blessed memory followed, in these words of theirs, in the paths of the prophets who speak of something which will happen in the future in the language of the past. Since they saw in prophetic vision that which was to occur in the future, they spoke about it in the past tense and testified firmly that it had happened, to teach the certainty of his [God's] words—may he be blessed—and his positive promise that can never change and his beneficent message that will not be altered.

—Saperstein, Marc. "The Works of R. Isaac b. Yedaiah." Ph.D. dissertation, Harvard University, 1977, pp. 481-82. Cited in Daggers of Faith by Robert Chazan, Berkeley: UC Press, 1989, p. 87.

From the standard grammar of Biblical Hebrew, Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar (section 106n, pp. 312-313):

More particularly the uses of the perfect may be distinguished as follows:—…To express facts which are undoubtedly imminent, and, therefore in the imagination of the speaker, already accomplished (perfectum confidentiae), e.g., Nu. 17:27, behold, we perish ,we are undone, we are all undone. Gn. 30:13, Is. 6:5 (I am undone), Pr. 4:2.…This use of the perfect occurs most frequently in prophetic language (perfectum propheticum). The prophet so transports himself in imagination into the future that he describes the future event as if it had been already seen or heard by him, e.g. Is. 5:13 therefore my people are gone into captivity; 9:1ff.,10:28,11:9…; 19:7, Jb. 5:20, 2 Ch. 20:37. Not infrequently the imperfect interchanges with such perfects either in the parallel member or further on in the narrative.

David ("Fortress of David," 18th c. commentary by David Altschuler) on Jeremiah 31:32:

"I will place—lit. I placed. This is the prophetic past. I will incline their hearts to keep the Torah."

—Cited in Rosenberg, A. J. Jeremiah: A New English Translation. New York: The Judaica Press, 1985, vol. 2, p. 255.

Contemporary Jewish commentator Nahum Sarna on Exodus 12:17, "for on this very day I brought your ranks out of the land of Egypt":

This is an example of the "prophetic perfect." The future is described as having already occurred because God's will inherently and ineluctably possesses the power of realization so that the time factor is inconsequential.

—Exodus: The Traditional Hebrew Text with the New JPS Translation (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 1991), p. 59.

From the recent textbook of Biblical Hebrew, An Introduction to Biblical Hebrew Syntax (Sec. 30.5.1.e, pp. 489-490):

Referring to absolute future time, a perfective> form may be persistent or accidental. A persistent (future) perfective represents a single situation extending from the present into the future.

Until when will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Exod 10:3 With an accidental perfective a speaker vividly and dramatically represents a future situation both as complete and as independent.

And concerning Ishmael…I will bless him. Gen. 17:20. Women will call me happy. Gen. 30:13. We will die. We are lost, we are all lost. Num. 17:27. This use is especially frequent in prophetic address (hence it is also called the "prophetic perfect" or "perfective of confidence").

I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob. Num. 24:17. In the past he humbled…in the future he will honor …The people walking in darkness will see a great light. Isa. 8:23-9:1. —Waltke and O'Connor [full reference given above], pp. 489-490.

[ChicagoHebrew]

From what I understood, I mostly agreed with it. A historical Jesus would have taught in the manner of Phariseees of his time. It's not surprising then, that his teachings reflected the Aggadah and Midrash. There were some errors in the article-- such as the claim that "love your neighbor as yourself" originates in the Midrash. Of course, the truth is that it comes straight from Leviticus.

[ChicagoHebrew]

Partially correct and partially incorrect. There is clearly such a thing as tense in Hebrew-- as their is in any language. While it's true that Prophets sometimes speak of the future as the past, reading the context of the verses can make it easy to differentiate when Prophets are speaking prophetically, and when they are actually speaking in the past. For example the context of Isaiah 7 (a young woman has already conceived):

2When the house of David heard that Aram had allied itself with Ephraim, the heart of Ahaz and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. 3Then the LORD said to Isaiah, Go out to meet Ahaz, you and your son Shear-jashub, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field, 4and say to him, Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, because of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah. 5Because Aram--with Ephraim and the son of Remaliah--has plotted evil against you, saying, 6Let us go up against Judah and cut off Jerusalem and conquer it for ourselves and make the son of Tabeel king in it; 7therefore thus says the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass. 8For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years Ephraim will be shattered, no longer a people.) 9The head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah. If you do not stand firm in faith, you shall not stand at all. 10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, saying, 11Ask a sign of the LORD your God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven. 12But Ahaz said, I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test. 13Then Isaiah said: "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary mortals, that you weary my God also? 14Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. 15He shall eat curds and honey by the time he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted.

The context is that Ahaz is troubled by Aram's invasion of Judah, and fears that he will lose his crown and country. Isaiah says, essentially, "don't worry, G-d will make sure the invasion does not succeed--- here's proof, a young woman is with child..." The obvious context being that a young woman in Ahaz's court had just gotten pregnant-- the sign being that she will choose to name her child Immanuel (probably informing Ahaz shortly after Isaiah's words), and that by the time the child is a toddler, Judah will be secure from it's enemies. It would hardly be a "sign" for Isaiah to say "Yo Ahaz, don't you be worrying 'bout dis invasion for it won't succeed. Let me prove it to you, 600 years from now a child will be born." That's hardly the kind of "sign" that would have comforted Ahaz--- on the other hand, having a relative come to him a few days later and say "Oh Ahaz, guess what, I'm pregnant and I'm naming my child Immanuel" would be exactly the kind of comfort Ahaz needed.

I won't respond to your posts anymore, as I find this exchange dull and tiresome.

[DannyTN]

Whether a future promise was sufficient for Ahaz, depends on how much faith Ahaz had in God.

David took it on faith that since God had promised that David would be King, and was willing to face Goliath, because David knew in order for God to keep His word, David couldn't lose.

[DannyTN]

The Context of Isa 53.

Start of ChapterIsa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

In context, a lot of people aren't going to believe Isaiah and the others about the arm of the Lord.

>Endo of ChapterIsaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Whoever Isaiah is talking about, His soul will be offered as a sin offering, yet He will see his seed, He will bear the sin of many and make intercession for the transgressors.

Now there is a context I love.

Ahh, but of course I'm an idiot, to think I can understand what Isaiah is talking about. A ignorant fool Christian missionary with his dull and tiresome and boring arguments.

Too stupid to realize that the suffering servant is Israel. Because everyone knows Israel's soul was offered as a sin offering and Israel bore the sins of many.

[philosofy123]

The old communist oppressive East Germans, and the North Koreans communists are ordered to kill their fellow citizens if they attempt to jump the fence, and switch to the other side. By the same analogy, according to Islamic laws, any Moslem who switches to another religion must be killed. It is like a mafia, you can get in, but you can never get out.

[tictoc]

Thank you tictoc for your lies #1 and #2. other people on FR have been saying this for a while and people tend to beleive them. Thank you for labeling your post for what it is: LIES.

You are either severely retarded or you are pathetically attempting irony (and falling flat).

joe032783 had no trouble understanding what I was calling a lie, so why is that so difficult for you? Go back to my post # 71 and read it again slowly.

Or maybe you'd like to point out to me the many synagogues in Saudi Arabia? Okay, then maybe just two? One...? When has any Israeli been allowed on Saudi soil, ever? Or any prominent non-Israeli Jew? Jewish Americans on assignment in Saudi "incognito" do not count. How many Jewish citizens does Saudi have today, how many a century ago, two centuries, seven centuries... The answer is NONE. ZERO. What happened to the populous Jewish settlements in Arabia? Are you claiming that the Jews were not all expelled from there soon after Mohammed's death (the ones that he hadn't killed or kicked out himself)?

I am not an expert on the history of Islam but even I know that much. Are you a Muslim? How come you don't know this stuff?

Of course, I am going by the Muslim sources themselves. Could be that they're wrong about their own history, but I haven't heard any Muslim say that.

Joe hasn't shown up yet on faithfreedom.org, when are we going to see you there?

[dennisw]

that's fine. in fact, i think all muslims do condemn terrorism......

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[tictoc]

in fact, i think all muslims do condemn terrorism

Uh-huh. Sure. Yeah, right.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Let's take a good close look at Isaiah 7

Revised Standard Version

Isaiah 7

1: In the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, son of Uzzi'ah, king of Judah, Rezin the king of Syria and Pekah the son of Remali'ah the king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but they could not conquer it.

2: When the house of David (king Ahaz) was told, "Syria is in league with E'phraim," his heart and the heart of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake before the wind. (Ahaz and the people of Judah were terrified of the defeat they expected from the united efforts of Syria and the northern Kingdom, Israel)

3: And the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go forth to meet Ahaz, (Isaiah sent to talk to Ahaz) you and She'ar-jash'ub (lit. "a remnant shall return") your son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool on the highway to the Fuller's Field,

4: and say to him, `Take heed, be quiet, do not fear, (Isaiah sent to calm the fears of the king of Judah) and do not let your heart be faint because of these two smoldering stumps of firebrands, at the fierce anger of Rezin and Syria and the son of Remali'ah.

5: Because Syria, with E'phraim and the son of Remali'ah, has devised evil against you, saying,
6: "Let us go up against Judah and terrify it, and let us conquer it for ourselves, and set up the son of Ta'be-el as king in the midst of it,"

7: thus says the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, and it shall not come to pass. (the defeat of Judah by Rezin of Syria and Pekah of the northern Kingdom of Israel)

8: For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin. (Within sixty-five years E'phraim will be broken to pieces so that it will no longer be a people.) (NOTE! a clear timeframe was given from THAT time)

9: And the head of E'phraim is Sama'ria, and the head of Sama'ria is the son of Remali'ah. If you will not believe, surely you shall not be established.'"
10: Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz,

11: "Ask a sign of the LORD your God; (Ahaz is asked to ask for a sign) let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven."

12: But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not put the LORD to the test."

13: And he said, "Hear then, O house of David! (Ahaz is of the house of David) Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also?

14: Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. (the birth - or the name - was to be a sign to Ahaz. This couldn't possibly be the birth of Messiah, since it was hundreds of years later, long after Ahaz had died! A "sign" to a dead man is useless.)

15: He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.

16: For before the child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land before whose two kings you are in dread will be deserted. (those united against Judah)

17: The LORD will bring upon you and upon your people and upon your father's house such days as have not come since the day that E'phraim departed from Judah -- the king of Assyria." (Judah would be chastised severely through Assyria because of the wicked rule of Ahaz and other kings that forsook G-d's Torah; however, Assyria would not be the end for Judah.)

18: In that day the LORD will whistle for the fly which is at the sources of the streams of Egypt, and for the bee which is in the land of Assyria.
19: And they will all come and settle in the steep ravines, and in the clefts of the rocks, and on all the thornbushes, and on all the pastures.
20: In that day the Lord will shave with a razor which is hired beyond the River -- with the king of Assyria -- the head and the hair of the feet, and it will sweep away the beard also.
21: In that day a man will keep alive a young cow and two sheep;
22: and because of the abundance of milk which they give, he will eat curds; for every one that is left in the land will eat curds and honey.
23: In that day every place where there used to be a thousand vines, worth a thousand shekels of silver, will become briers and thorns.
24: With bow and arrows men will come there, for all the land will be briers and thorns;
25: and as for all the hills which used to be hoed with a hoe, you will not come there for fear of briers and thorns; but they will become a place where cattle are let loose and where sheep tread.

Isaiah 8

1: Then the LORD said to me, "Take a large tablet and write upon it in common characters, `Belonging to Ma'her-shal'al-hash-baz.'"
2: And I got reliable witnesses, Uri'ah the priest and Zechari'ah the son of Jeberechi'ah, to attest for me.

3: And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Call his name Ma'her-shal'al-hash-baz; (THIS IS THE FULFILLMENT OF 7:14!)

4: for before the child knows how to cry `My father' or `My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Sama'ria will be carried away before the king of Assyria." (repeat of 7:16, further proving this birth to be the fulfillment of Is. 7:14!)

5: The LORD spoke to me again:
6: "Because this people have refused the waters of Shilo'ah that flow gently, and melt in fear before Rezin and the son of Remali'ah;
7: therefore, behold, the Lord is bringing up against them the waters of the River, mighty and many, the king of Assyria and all his glory; and it will rise over all its channels and go over all its banks;

8: and it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass on, reaching even to the neck; and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Imman'u-el." (The use of this term (Immanuel) in 7:14 was part of the sign which was "G-d with us" during the time to soon come when Judah feels threatened from Assyria. Here the name is applied to Judah to insure that divine protection will be extended to it, which of course, it was at that time.)

There are several unambiguous facts seen in the context of these verses.

First, Isaiah is talking to King Ahaz of Judah and tells HIM (Ahaz) that the sign of a birth will be for HIM. This fact alone makes application of Isaiah 7:14 to the birth of J*sus impossible, since Ahaz was long dead by the time J*sus was born; thus proving it is not a Messianic prophesy.

The ENTIRE context of these verses refer to the specific issue of the prophecy regarding what will happen to those that were plotting to destroy Judah, of which Ahaz was King. Even the term Immanuel, "g-d with us", was to assure Judah, as shown in 8:8, that G-d would be "with them" during the time of trial that was to come when Syria and Israel strove against Judah and Assyria invaded. Only a few verses after Isaiah 7:14, in verse 8:3, we probably see the birth he was speaking of in Is. 7:14. It was a birth of a son to Isaiah and his young wife.

Thus, the context is clear that the (young woman) was probably Isaiah's wife, the "prophetess", mentioned in Is. 8:3. This is crystal clear when bias is removed and the Scripture is actually allowed to speak for itself. Some Judaic commentators believe it applies to Hezekiah, the son of Ahaz, who proved to be one of Judah's greatest Kings; however, the context seems to more correctly point to Isaiah's son as the fulfillment.

Either way, the newborn child being prophesied was for THAT PARTICULAR TIMEFRAME as a sign to Ahaz. The prophecy was NOT for a timeframe 700 years after Ahaz was dead (J*sus was born about 700 years after this prophecy)!

Mahershalalhashbaz from the Hebrew
4122  Maher Shalal Chash Baz mah-hare' shaw-lawl' khawsh baz
= Maher-shalal-hash-baz "swift is booty, speedy is prey"
1) symbolic name given by Isaiah by the Lord's direction to Isaiah's son; prophetic indication that Damascus and Samaria were soon to be plundered by the king of Assyria

Additionally, Isaiah 7:16 and 8:4 are almost identical, proving them to reference the same event, which was that while the newborn son of Isaiah was yet young, the prophecy would be accomplished, which was that G-d would eliminate the threat posed to Ahaz by the combined efforts of Ephraim and Damascus. This provides further evidence that the birth foretold as a sign TO AHAZ was fulfilled by the birth of Isaiah's newborn son with the prophetess (Isaiah's wife) as the mother.

The common sense context is clear. The ONLY way Isaiah 7:14 can be a Messianic verse referring to J*sus is to completely rip it free of the clear context in which it resides. The ONLY evidence that this is a Messianic prophecy is the evidence supplied by Constantinian Christian tradition and probable scribal manipulation of the Gospels.