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To: nolu chan
I have read it, as well as the other treaties that were part of the Peace of Paris (1783). The others were between Britain and France and Spain, and between Britian and the Netherlands.

I also understood the historical and political context.

I believe it was historian Shelby Foote who observed, "before the Civil War Americans would say "the United States are" rather than "the United States is" as we do today." NC, your Clintonian parsing of grammar does not support your views. If you really want to parse grammar, look up the meaning of the Latin term videlicet. That term is used when specifying parts of a whole. What George III wanted to recognize is not nearly as important as how the United States presented itself in the negotiations.

(Let me correct an error in my earlier post. Hartley, of course, was the British representative. The THREE (not four) Americans were Jay, Franklin, and Adams.)

1,447 posted on 10/24/2003 11:46:20 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: capitan_refugio
[CapnR] If you really want to parse grammar, look up the meaning of the Latin term videlicet. That term is used when specifying parts of a whole.

Parse. vt. 1. to resolve (as a sentence) into component parts of speech and describe them grammatically 2. to describe grammatically by stating the part of speech and explaining the inflection and syntactical relationships. vi 1. to give a grammatical description of a word or a group of words. 2. to admit of being parsed.

SOURCE: Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary

Viz. Videlicet, that is to say.

SOURCE: Bouvier's Law Dictionary, 1856 edition.

Videlicit. Lat. The words "to-wit," or "that is to say," so frequently used in pleading, are technically called the "videlicit" or "scilicet;" and when any fact alleged in pleading is preceded by, or accompanied with these words, such fact is, in the language of the law, said to be "laid under a videlicit." the use of the videlicit is to point out, particularize, or render more specific that which has been previously stated in general lauguage only; also to explain that which is doubtful or obscure. Its common office is to state time, place, or manner which are of the essence of the matter in issue.

SOURCE: Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition

1,450 posted on 10/25/2003 1:12:44 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
[CapnR] I believe it was historian Shelby Foote who observed, "before the Civil War Americans would say "the United States are" rather than "the United States is" as we do today."

I believe it was the Paris Peace agreement that explicitly gave sovereignty to THIRTEEN SOVEREIGN STATES. That was agreed to, in writing, by ALL parties.

[CapnR] NC, your Clintonian parsing of grammar does not support your views.

You may call this Clintonion parsing of grammar if you choose. You may also choose to believe Clinton was only counseling Monica.

STATE OF RHODE ISLAND AND PROVIDENCE PLANTATIONS,
In General Assembly, September Session, 1789.

To the President, the Senate, and the House of Representatives of the eleven United States of America in Congress assembled:

* * *

We are induced to hope that we shall not be altogether considered as foreigners having no particular affinity or connection with the United States; but that trade and commerce, upon which the properity of this State much depends, will be preservved as free and open between this State and the United States, as our different situations at present can possibly admit....

* * *

(Signed) John Collins, Governor.

His Excellency, the President of the United States.

[American State Papers, Vol I, Miscellaneous.]

SOURCE: The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, Jefferson Davis, Vol I, pp. 112-3.

[CapnR] What George III wanted to recognize is not nearly as important as how the United States presented itself in the negotiations.

Article 1:

His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.

That is the language agreed to, in writing, by ALL representatives.

In a written treaty, it is the black letter text within the four corners of the agreement that counts, not someone's later revisionist fantasy.

1,454 posted on 10/25/2003 2:00:31 AM PDT by nolu chan
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