Perspective: Die-hard Confederates should be reconstructed

St. Augustine Record ^ | 09/27/2003 | Peter Guinta

[nolu chan]

WALT'S FANTASY

You've seen this before:

"Lincoln's address on April 11 triggered Booth's shift from thought to action. In the crowd outside the White House that evening, he heard the President recommend suffrage for blacks who were educated or had served in the Union armies. "That means nigger citizenship," the actor muttered, and he vowed, "That is the last speech he will ever make." He urged Paine to shoot the President on the spot. When Paine refused, Booth turned in disgust to his other companion, David Herold, and exclaimed, "By God, I'll put him through."

WALT'S SECOND FANTASY

[nc] The phrase "at present" does not appear in your fantasy. Relative to your fantasy, footnoting a non-existent phrase is a waste of time and proves nothing.

[nc] The phrase "to the tyrant" does not appear in your fantasy. Relative to your fantasy, footnoting a non-existent phrase is a waste of time and proves nothing.

[nc] The phrase "if he wished" does not appear in your fantasy. Relative to your fantasy, footnoting a non-existent phrase is a waste of time and proves nothing. This phrase pertains to an irrelevant meeting in New York.

I scanned all that out of Donald's book. It's there.

Walt

No you ignorant moron, it is NOT there.

[WhiskeyPapa]

No you ignorant moron, it is NOT there.

It's on page 684 of the first "touchstone" edition of 1995. That is to say, the notes are on page 684. That Booth threatened to Kill Lincoln over Lincoln's supporting black suffrage is on page 588.

Dr. McPherson relates the same incident on page 852 of "Battle Cry of Freedom". I have the first hardback edition of this book, from 1988.

I can't imagine why you keep coming back to this.

Walt

[nolu chan]

[Walt] Dr. McPherson relates the same incident on page 852 of "Battle Cry of Freedom".

McPherson was not there and heard nothing. He cites his source as William Hanchett. William Hanchett was not there and heard nothing. Hanchett does not cite anyone who was there either. For Hanchett, see The Lincoln Murder Conspiracies, William Hanchett, 1983, Illinois Books edition 1986, p. 37. Footnote 9, at page 250.

[Walt] I can't imagine why you keep coming back to this.

I keep coming back to your failure to document your fairy tale. You have yet to provide one source to document the absurd alleged conversation. So far, all you have cited is one Lincoln pimp citing another Lincoln pimp, none of whom so much as alleged any source who purported to hear any of the involved parties say anything.

While you are at it, you can explain why this alleged fairy tale was not even mentioned at the trial. It is ten pounds of Tennessee dingbat guano in a five pound bag.

Would you prefer a table or a booth?

[nolu chan]

BOOTH'S DIARY

April 13 - 14 Friday the Ides

"Until to day nothing was ever thought of sacrificing to our country's wrongs. For six months we had worked to capture. But our cause being almost lost, something decisive & great must be done. ... I can never repent it, though we hated to kill: Our country owed all her troubles to him, and god simply made me the instrument of his punishment. The country is not what it was. This forced union is not what I have loved."

Friday 21

"After being hunted like a dog through swamps, woods, and last night being chased by gun boats till I was forced to return wet cold and starving, with every mans hand against me, I am here in despear. and why; For doing what Brutus was honored for, what made Tell a Hero. And yet I for striking down a greater tyrant they they ever knew am looked upon as a common cutthroat. MY action was purer than either of theirs. One, hoped to be great himself. The other had not only his countrys but his own wrongs to avenge. I hoped for no gain. I new no private wrong. I struck for my country and that alone. A country groaned beneath this tyranny and prayed for this end."

Right or Wrong, God Judge Me, The Writings of John Wilkes Booth, Edited by John Rhodehamel and Louise Taper, p. 154.

"James Wood [Lewis Thornton Powell] sometimes called Mosby boarded with Mrs. Murry an Irish Woman on the corder of 9 & F St. in a three story house...

"Booth never said until last night (Friday) [nc: April 14, 1865] that he intended to kill the President....

"Herold came to the Kirkwood House, same evening for me to go see Booth. I went with herold & saw Booth. He then said he was going to kill the president and Wood, the Secy. Of State. I did not believe him. This occurred in the evening about 7 1/2 o clock."

From alleged statement of Geo. A. Atzerodt to Prov. Mar. McPhail in presence of John L. Smith on the night of May 1, 1865 aboard the monitor USS Montauk. Recorded by John L. Smith. Discovered in 1977 among personal papers of William E. Doster, Atzerodt's attorney. Appears in The Trial, The Assassination of President Lincoln and the Trial of the Conspirators, as compiled and arranged in 1865 by Benn Pitman, Edited by Edward Steers, Jr., 2003, p. CIV-CV.

"The Reverend George Powell of Live Oak, Florida, uncertain whether the condemned "Payne" was his son, set out north, only to turn back sadly when convinced that he could not possibly reach Washington before the executions. Persistent doubts compelled the clergyman's family to send a daguerrotype of their soldier son to the War Department. No one there admitted to receiving it. But a photo of Lewis Powell, late of Mosby's Rangers and, before that, the 2nd Florida Infantry, lodged undisturbed in NDP files. It bore little resemblance to Lewis Payne."

Dark Union, Leonard F. Guttmore and Ray A. Neff, 2003, p. 186

It appears that Paine/Payne was not the real Lewis Thornton Powell either. Whomever Paine/Payne/Powell was, he was not Colonel Mosby who was most assuredly not dead.

Pitman, page 45, deals with testimony of Samuel Knapp Chester on May 12, 1865. The quote relates to a meeting in New York and reads:

For the Prosecution

"On Friday, one week previous to the assassination, I saw him [Booth] again in New York. We were in the 'House of Lords,' sitting at a table. He had not been there long before he exclaimed, striking the table, 'What an excellent chance I had to kill the President, if I had wished, on inauguration day!' He said he was as near the President that day as he was to me."

Cross-examination by Mr. Ewing

Booth spoke of the plot to capture the President, not to assassinate him, and to take him to Richmond."

[nolu chan]

[Wlat getting desperate] You called the story that Booth swore to kill Lincoln over supporting black suffrage a "fairy tale." It's not. You'd think you'd have the common sense to let it drop.

I see that you have failed utterly to document that effluvium you pathetically purported to be well-documented.

You have slithered to the point of claiming that "Powell" or Herold testified about it, while they did not testify at all.

You have stooped to infer they testified at other tribunals than the trial, knowing such other tribunals were non-existent.

You have weaseled your way to saying, "You can find this story related on literally dozens of websites." A search of "Abraham Lincoln Gay" returned 64,700 hits in two-tenths of a second. If you consider dozens of websites as authoritative proof, what about 64,700?

You'd think that you'd have the common sense and minimal intellect required to recognize that there are only three possible sources for this fairy tale: Booth, Herold, or "Paine." Or do you allege Dr. McPherson was on the grassy knoll and overheard it all?

You say it is well-documented. Why can't you document it?

[nolu chan]

Davis has written many books and articles, and many have the same theme; however, I am always a little dubious about the "prolific" authors.

Some authors are so prolific, they only prove they are wordsmiths who could not possibly have fact-checked all that they wrote.

Somewhat analogous is what Ann Coulter described in her book Treason, at page 96:

Flip through any book about McCarthy and notice the footnotes. It is an aresting fact that the supporting documentation rarely consists of primary source material. Academics cite other academics, who cite other academics, with nearly all statements about McCarthy eventually tracing their way back to contemporaneous news accounts from a rabidly anti-McCarthy press. Doing original research on McCarthy is apparently not tenure-track material at American universities. As the saying goes, the first draft of history is written by journalists. And we know who they are. They told us Clinton was only counseling Monica.

[4CJ]

Oliver Ellsworth wrote the judicary act of 1789, which gave the Supreme Court the clear power of declaring state laws unconstitutional

The Judiciary Act simply codified Article III establishng the court system etc. It only applies to states in the union, and in no way prohibits secession. Section 13 of that act states, '[t]hat the Supreme Court shall have exclusive jurisdiction of all controversies of a civil nature, where a state is a party ...' If the acts of the states were criminal, the US courts lack jurisdiction. If you argue that it wasn't the states but the people, the this same act states, 'all actions at law against citizens of the United States, shall be by jury'. Where's their trial? Even then, Section 17 limits punishment to 'fine or imprisonment', there is no provision for invading a state.

Lincoln was required by the Judicary Act to wait for a ruling. He was bound to abide by that ruling per the Supremacy clause. The states weren't, as the Supremacy clause applies to 'the Judges in every State', 'the Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States'. It doesn't apply to the states themselves, or the people of the states.

[4CJ]

All first year 'volunteers' who went to war under the state conscription acts were drafted into the Confederate National Army during their first enlistment.

Let me get this this straight, my ancestor volunteered to defend his home and VOLUNTARILY enlisted, yet you claim he was drafted against his will? I think I know more about this than you do.

The only way your ancestor 'volunteered southern style on three occasiions was to use different names. No doubt he merely collected his equipment and deserted back to the hill country. There is no other explanation.

Sure there is - his enlistments were for 1 year periods. That of his 4 brothers was the same. He enlisted using the same name each time. He was wounded and discharged, only to re-enlist. From Dec 1862 state act,

Resolved further, That His Excellency the Governor, be, and he is hereby authorized, in raising said Regiments, to advertise and call for volunteers from all the militia except the part in actual service of the Confederacy, and from such able bodied citizens of this State not subject to military duty as will volunteer

[stand watie]

what a foolish bit of nonsense on your part! the silver, jewelry & personal property LOOTED by "the beast" was for HIS personal enrichment.

looting was/is a WAR CRIME!

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

the slowest and most gruesome death of an INNOCENT civilian was that of 71 year old Mangus Colorados, who was tortured to death by a damnyankee cavalry troop.

he had burning coals & heated bayonets applied to his body for over 16 HOURS, until such time as he finally died from pain.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

but then you aren't a scalawag. NOTHING is lower than a scalawag. NOTHING!

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

ALL rights NOT given explicitly to the federal government REMAIN with the people and their respective states.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

seams???

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

TRUE!

free dixie,sw

[WhiskeyPapa]

Maybe the Judiciary doesn't apply. Secession -is- a criminal act, after all.

Walt

[Paul C. Jesup]

Seams as in joints, ridges and layers. As in coming apart as the seams.

[WhiskeyPapa]

Lincoln was required by the Judicary Act to wait for a ruling. He was bound to abide by that ruling per the Supremacy clause.

'Fraid not. The president had the power to act as per the Militia Act. The -states- on the other hand, -were- bound by the Judiciary Act.

If they wanted to act -- as states-- then their civil controversies had to be submitted to the Supreme Court.

Walt

[Held_to_Ransom]

Not when the property is seized from a criminal, particularly one who no doubt had a price on his head on from both sides.

[Held_to_Ransom]

Sure there is - his enlistments were for 1 year periods. That of his 4 brothers was the same. He enlisted using the same name each time. He was wounded and discharged, only to re-enlist

From what unit and when?

[Non-Sequitur]

ALL rights NOT given explicitly to the federal government REMAIN with the people and their respective states.

And where exactly does it say that? Especially the 'explicit' part?