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To: Tin-Legions
If you care to know, your speaking of the M-56 Scorpion. The original version mounted one 90mm gun, but the USMC version fielded 4 recoiless rifles.

Well, no. The Airborne's 90mm Scorpion or SPAT as it was more commonly called, was an open mounted 90mm antitank gun on a light tracked chassis; the Marine's Ontos was the enclosed vehicle a bout the size of a passenger car that mounted six 106mm M40A1 recoilless rifles and a machinegun; sometimes dropped in the back of a 5-ton truck as an *instant gun truck* for protection of Marine convoys. I was around the things in use a couple of times; spectacular, but they worked, and a heckuva anti-sniper response when loaded with canister rounds.

It was the US version of the German WWII STUG III series of "assault guns". Very handy, we could use one over there for immediate fire support and suppression of ambushers. 4 90mm flechette rounds would end an ambush real quick.

Again, not quite. The lack of traverse of the main gun of a StuG suits it better for a role as an *ambush tank*, as used by the Finnish forces to repeatedly kill Russian T-34 and other tanks during their Jatkisota *Continuation War* with the Soviet Union following the November 1939-March 1940 Talvisota *Winter War* invasion of Finland by the USSR. The Finns were likely THE most effective users of assault guns, but now find their *Sisu* wheeled personnel carrier to be most suitable...when the ground is frozen.

But the Germans found themselves with a similar requirement for internal security vehicles and infantry support in cities, and found that six and eight-wheeled armored cars with 75 and 105mm low-velocity guns worked fine...until they met up with raiding jeeps mounting .50 caliber machineguns, bazookas, or flamethrowers.

35 posted on 09/30/2003 8:11:44 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: archy
I remember seeing pictures of the Ontos, so did a Google and found this site.

I especially liked this quote: The Ontos carried the beehive round that sent out a hundred darts per firing to clean out a jungle of its enemy. There was no other weapon that could clear a jungle for a depth of a ¼ mile like the 106mm recoilless rifle using the beehive round.

But this quote I found disturbing: Vietnam was run by our politicians; with rules of engagement that totally distracted the military commander. Our air power was forbidden to knock out the surface to air missile sites that depleted their ranks. In early Vietnam, the enemy could retreat to areas forbidden to US forces. These rules as applied to the Ontos crews decreed that all major calibre weapons had to secure Battalion authority before being loaded or fired. The early Ontos crews were expected to go into combat areas unloaded. Later, they could have 106 rounds in the guns, but had to secure authority to fire.

Are you kidding me? I knew the politicians tried running the war, but that is totally assinine!

52 posted on 09/30/2003 4:21:14 PM PDT by yhwhsman ("Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small..." -Sir Winston Churchill)
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To: archy
Hey, great info, thanks for the pictures and corrections, all good stuff. I could only find info on the Scorpion, so I figured they were copies of one another.

Have to disagree with you on the STUG III series-the Germans fielded it with the sole purpose of infantry support-hence why the early models had low velocity guns with primary loads of HE shells. The tank destroyer/killer role evolved later after combat experience taught what you pointed out in your critique-it was poorly suited for such support ops. Hence the later versions with the longer 75/76mm AT guns.

If you live anywhere near VA., go check out the Army transpo museum at FT. Eustis-they have a Vietnam era gun truck on display-seriously up armored and heavily armed-again a perfect anti ambush weapon.

Again, great info, thanks for posting it, take care

54 posted on 09/30/2003 11:32:46 PM PDT by Tin-Legions
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