Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: WOSG
Even empiricists have a 'leap of faith', that leap is trust in the sensory perceptions and the reality of experience, none of which can be "proven".

What's to trust? If you have percepts you have percepts, if you don't you don't. You do (else you would not be reading these responses and responding to them).

What I mean by perception is my immediate conscious experience. It is all I am conscious of. If you mean something else by perception, that is fine. To prevent any confusion I will just use the word conscious or consciousness.

Since what we are conscious of is all that we can know or know about, what else could reality be? There cannot be anything that we cannot be conscious of in any way whatsoever. Are we conscious of the atoms? Not directly, but we are conscious of them in two ways, their direct manifestation in all of matter which is comprised of them and our understanding of their nature (which we discovered by studying the nature of the matter we are directly conscious of.) We may not be directly conscious of all that is, but there cannot be anything we cannot be conscious of in any way whatsoever.

Some have suggested there can be things we cannot be conscious of in any way at all. But this is meaningless. For there to be something we could not be conscious of at all, it would have to be something that had no effect, in any way on anything we are or could be conscious of. But such a thing would have no relationship whatsoever to anything we are conscious of. If something had no relationship whatsoever to what we can be conscious of, relative to what we are conscious of, it would have no qualities whatsoever. It cannot exist.

What we are conscious of is reality. If it is not, what does the word reality mean? I think those who suggest reality is something other than what we are conscious of are confusing the meaning of reality, with our understanding of the nature of reality or existence. We can certainly be mistaken about that, as every historical scientific mistake is evidence of. But even scientific mistakes are only mistakes because existence, the one (and only one) we are conscious of has a specific nature, and we only just now are beginning to get a good understanding of some aspects of that nature.

===============

There is some I agree with in the rest of your comments, but more I disagree with, but, since I have no intention of changing anyone's mind about anything, and the reasons I disagree would require lenghty explanations, I'll spare you (and me).

Just this, you said: Ask them if completely wiping out all humanity and all life forms entirely off the face of the earth is an evil or bad thing. Ask them to *prove* it.

I'll work backwards.

Prove, to whom? Most people have the idea of proof wrong. The purpose of proof is not to convince others, the purpose of proof is to ensure one has not made mistakes in their own reasoning. Do I have to prove I can see to anyone else before it is true?

Good and evil are relative terms. Nothing is just "good" or "evil." A thing (or action) is good (or bad) only if it is good or bad relative to some goal or end, that is, a purpose; more exactly, good and bad pertain only to beings capable of having goals and purposes. Since the ultimate purpose of an individual's life is his enjoyment of it, whatever interfere's with that purpose is bad, and whatever advances that purpose is good. Since, "wiping out all humanity and all life forms entirely off the face of the earth," would necessarily include the wiper, which would certainly preclude the wiper from enjoying his life (even if he were insane enought to think it wouldn't), it would be bad. Oddly enough, there really are a great meany people with the psychology of your hypothetical "wiper." They are called environmentalists.

Hank

75 posted on 09/09/2003 1:15:01 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies ]


To: Hank Kerchief
Since the ultimate purpose of an individual's life is his enjoyment of it, whatever interfere's with that purpose is bad, and whatever advances that purpose is good.

You forgot the standard Objectivist modifier "up to the point where the individual's enjoyment infringes on another's enjoyment."

Otherwise, you just endorsed Jeffrey Dahmer.

78 posted on 09/09/2003 1:33:13 PM PDT by Taliesan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies ]

To: Hank Kerchief
Hank I think you "get it":

Me: "Ask them if completely wiping out all humanity and all life forms entirely off the face of the earth is an evil or bad thing. Ask them to *prove* it."

You:"Prove, to whom? Most people have the idea of proof wrong. The purpose of proof is not to convince others, the purpose of proof is to ensure one has not made mistakes in their own reasoning. Do I have to prove I can see to anyone else before it is true?"

I agree. My point earlier was that knowledge can exist and be evident without being *certain* knowledge. Likewise with morality. We can have knowledge without full certainty.

I dont think you can ever "prove" right and wrong, but the anti-moralists take that to mean you cant reason of have any sort of moral knowledge or sense. I disagree. Moral knowledge can be understood and derived from understandin human thoughts, goals, ends, etc. just like other empirical knowledge.

Calling 'good' and 'evil' relative is imho a slippery slope to the moral relativism of the type we both disagree with. you are correct that 'good' is relative to a goal, but the absolute 'good' can be thought of as 'good' relative to the absolute ends and goals worth attaining, ie, life, knowledge, happiness.

Your parry the thought experiment with reasons based on ethical egoism, it at least presents an ethical rule that is reasoned as far as it goes, but neglects consideration of any altruism or concern for others, so try this one ...

What if the wiper was saddam hussein, and he got his evil henchmen to built this " earth destruction death device" that would wipe out humanity. After his own passing (triggered by an implant that detects his own heart stopping) all humanity will die. Is he good or evil or neither, and why?

On the epistemology ..."Since what we are conscious of is all that we can know or know about," I can give many counterpoints to undermine (um, what if the person is psychotic? what is 'reality' to a person who hallucinates?)
but a thread like this is tough to engage in such depth.
I'd in sum say my view: you can and *should* *trust* your perceptions as a basis of knowledge, but you are in error if you think you are not engaging in a form of trust aka faith (albeit a very safe one and far more reasonable than the leaps of mystic savants).



82 posted on 09/09/2003 3:57:42 PM PDT by WOSG
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies ]

To: Hank Kerchief
btw, thanks for good discussion/debate.
85 posted on 09/09/2003 4:36:25 PM PDT by WOSG
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson